SA Firefighter

Special Interest Image Posting => Emergency Aircraft => Topic started by: bajdas on April 27, 2009, 06:07:43 PM

Title: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: bajdas on April 27, 2009, 06:07:43 PM
From: http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25385931-2682,00.html

SA watches trial of giant waterbomber

A GIANT 747 air tanker that carries eight times as much water as other firefighting aircraft and moves twice as fast is bound for Australia.

The "Supertanker" will undergo its first fire season test in the US this year and authorities from SA, Victoria and NSW will be watching.

US officials have discussed the aircraft with Australian agencies, including Victoria's Country Fire Authority. Manufacturer Evergreen Aviation plans to stage a demonstration in Australia.

The plane is a Boeing 747 modified to carry 75,868 litres of water - more than eight times the usual payload for waterbombers.

It can reach speeds of 965km/h, twice as fast as typical firefighting aircraft, and disperses water with the same pressure as driving rain, the manufacturer claims. It takes about 30 minutes to refuel and refill using high-speed pumps.

The most effective airborne firefighting weapon used in Australia is the Erickson Air-Crane Helitanker, such as the one nicknamed Elvis, which is brought from the US each fire season.

The chopper carries 9000 litres of water, but it takes just 40 seconds to refill by lowering its bucket into a local water source
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: RescueHazmat on April 27, 2009, 06:11:02 PM
I hope it can't "mass-deluge".. - 70 thousand ton of water coming down on the 'ground' crews, won't be fun!
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Pipster on April 27, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Great..it carries 75,000 litres of water.

In summer, with a lack of water supplies, where is it going to fill?

Does it scoop from the sea?   I can't see it being able to scoop from any other water supply in SA in summer....

Perhaps the Govt could just give the money they were going to spend on this project, to CFS, for new stations etc....it'd be more effective!

Pip
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Zippy on April 27, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
Can it fly from Queensland when it floods...
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: rescue5271 on April 27, 2009, 08:32:21 PM
I think you will find it wont be using WATER,but THERMO GEL as that is what the USA is using in it at the moment..But lets face it where will it land and how much will it cost to run?? I can't see it doing any work outside of a capital city unless they are going to make country run ways longer....Nothing wrong with what we have in place now,but its ok to Look but lets get it right sure go see what its all about come back and rather than sit in the city and say yes it would work have some workshops and get volunteers to have their say...

I can tell you already what I would say.....
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: adelaide_medic on April 28, 2009, 12:44:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfCwChAg6lE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osCF0c4IcA4
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: chook on April 28, 2009, 07:06:07 AM
Now you know where your budgets go - junkets :evil:
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: RescueHazmat on April 28, 2009, 07:11:08 PM
Great..it carries 75,000 litres of water.

In summer, with a lack of water supplies, where is it going to fill?

Does it scoop from the sea?   I can't see it being able to scoop from any other water supply in SA in summer....

Perhaps the Govt could just give the money they were going to spend on this project, to CFS, for new stations etc....it'd be more effective!

Pip
They have said it will have to fill with water/fuel from an airport. - 30 mins turn around with their pump systems.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: firegun on April 28, 2009, 09:00:33 PM
This sounds good, let us get one for next year. :-D

Then as it will only be able to be used from Adelaide, that is OK too.
This will then allow the current "crop" of aircraft we contract each summer to be dispersed across the state to supplement the rural firefighting capacity.
Wait a minute, where is the money going to come from, from the current "air" budget, or from one of the other "buckets" the CFS has.
(i am being sarcastic tonight, its been one of those days) :wink: :wink:

I am sure that the CFS powers that be would weigh up all the options before committing to such an arrangement.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: TillerMan on April 29, 2009, 10:00:00 AM
What a joke if they even think about it, haha it makes me laugh.

As for gel, that would cost a fortune...
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: 6739264 on April 29, 2009, 10:21:49 AM
I would love to see it try to scoop from the sea, only to promptly tear itself apart and find itself featured on next weeks episode "Air Crash Investigation"

Well hey, why not purchase one? I mean, if we can spend the entire SACFS RCR training budget on ASPHALT, we may as well spend some of Euan's paycheck on this shitheap of a fuckup.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: jaff on April 29, 2009, 11:19:56 AM
Everyone is getting caught up in arguements over trivial things, as a Fire service I think we need to rise above petty arguements - costings, bombing agents, turn around times and aircraft effectivness to name a few.
For me the one critical issue that still has not been clarified is, will it have a siren?
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: 6739264 on April 29, 2009, 11:31:25 AM
For me the one critical issue that still has not been clarified is, will it have a siren?

They come fitted with two Federal-Q Mechanical Sirens. I believe they also have a H2 Covert Siren Controller with Wail, Yelp, Hi-Lo, Hyper-Lo, Hyper-Yelp, Whoop, Manual Wail and E-Air Horn options.

Rumour has suggested a MX 7000 Lightbar...
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: bittenyakka on April 30, 2009, 07:42:38 PM
Well i would love to see how well it works, But have my doubts along the lines of impractical :-D
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Alan J on April 30, 2009, 11:49:25 PM
Comes with 4 Pratt & Whitney sirens. 
Two settings only - "Wail" and "make-the-ground-shake".

Seeing as it can only operate from long paved runways, we can look forward to significant upgrades to Cherry Gardens airstrip...  blow more than just the
training budget on asphalt !!  :-D

BRING IT ON !!!!
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: boss on June 30, 2009, 07:15:26 PM
the sa govament should get three of the and use them for ki all three should knock the fire's out in next to no time no more strike teams for us firey's     :-P :-D
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: vsteve01 on July 01, 2009, 04:32:40 PM
something like this seems more appropriate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDa0gs6c6FU
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: crashndash on July 01, 2009, 09:06:06 PM
nope...it's not

our reservoirs dont have the north south clearance for them to fill.....and east west is limited by cross wind on bad fire days with wind from the north (so they pick up less water).

Cant fill from the ocean in sea states over 2....so waves more than 0.75m....which is most days

Designed for use in the Great Lakes area of US and Canada....for there its fine
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: boredmatrix on July 02, 2009, 04:02:24 PM
I would love to see it try to scoop from the sea, only to promptly tear itself apart


nah..that wouldn't happen...unless it's an airbus!!
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: rescue5271 on July 02, 2009, 08:45:14 PM
The supper scoopers have been used here in Victoria as part of a tour that they did back in late 1990's and from that report it was found back then that we dont have the vast lakes and water ways that they have in the USA and so they would be limited in there use here.

Hey let them go and watch but lets face it, it will only work close to a major city  and even then you will have problems trying to get a time slot to land at a AIRPORT....
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: CFS_Firey on July 04, 2009, 05:27:26 PM
The most effective airborne firefighting weapon used in Australia is the Erickson Air-Crane Helitanker, such as the one nicknamed Elvis, which is brought from the US each fire season.

How can they make a claim like that?  Perhaps they meant most expensive?
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Alex on July 04, 2009, 07:52:53 PM
hmmm most effective/pretty looking for spot fires perhaps....
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Alan J on July 05, 2009, 07:51:25 PM
The most effective airborne firefighting weapon used in Australia is the Erickson Air-Crane Helitanker, such as the one nicknamed Elvis, which is brought from the US each fire season.

How can they make a claim like that?  Perhaps they meant most expensive?


I can think of two possible views on this.

One is: It was a quote in the paper from last year.  So it must be true.

Two is: The most effective equipment is the stuff that offers politicians & other
        clowns the most photo opportunities.  Isn't it ?

Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: CFS_Firey on July 05, 2009, 10:49:38 PM
The most effective airborne firefighting weapon used in Australia is the Erickson Air-Crane Helitanker, such as the one nicknamed Elvis, which is brought from the US each fire season.

How can they make a claim like that?  Perhaps they meant most expensive?


I can think of two possible views on this.

One is: It was a quote in the paper from last year.  So it must be true.

Two is: The most effective equipment is the stuff that offers politicians & other
        clowns the most photo opportunities.  Isn't it ?



I'm going for option two.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Firey_Al on October 11, 2009, 11:20:25 PM
 :mrgreen: More Air Tractors thank you Mr CFS People..... Love to see those yellow ducks fly..... Do a awsome job at fires... Cheap and very cost affective...  :-P More Air Tractors means more jobs as well...

Stuff using Super Bombers like the 707 and 747 types they use in the States and parts of Canada.... Too costly.... Too slow.... Too dangerous.....

My thoughts only...
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Zippy on October 12, 2009, 06:45:30 AM
-takeaway the skycrane
-add 4 fixed wings
-add 2 mid-sized helo's
-add a midnorth manned airbase
-add a Upper Murray manned airbase

Ta da!
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: jaff on October 12, 2009, 07:55:36 AM
-takeaway the skycrane


Ta da!


BLASPHEMER.....SAY........3 Hail Marys.. and your absolved of your sin! :-D
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Zippy on October 12, 2009, 08:48:45 AM
-takeaway the skycrane


Ta da!


BLASPHEMER.....SAY........3 Hail Marys.. and your absolved of your sin! :-D

Ha...never.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Burnover on November 07, 2009, 09:15:07 AM
From http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/state-government-to-lease-multi-million-dollar-fire-fighting-jet/story-e6frf7jo-1225795179869 (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/state-government-to-lease-multi-million-dollar-fire-fighting-jet/story-e6frf7jo-1225795179869)

A MULTI-million dollar super water-bomber capable of soaking a 1.2km bushfire in one hit will join our firefighting arsenal this summer.
The water-bombing jet will be able to reach anywhere in Victoria in just 45 minutes, and is being billed as an important weapon in heading off another Black Saturday disaster.

With forecasts of a fierce summer, Premier John Brumby moved quickly to get an Australian-first firefighting jet lease, most likely a modified DC-10 or 747 jumbo carrier.

Police and Emergency Services Minister Bob Cameron told the Herald Sun the aircraft would be one important weapon in fighting fires and protecting Victorians.

"This will be another asset as we leave no stone unturned to help deliver on our goal of making Victoria as fire safe and as fire ready as possible," he said.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2009, 09:43:55 AM
Mmmm i wonder if the fire service actually wanted it, and how much it will impact on there budget....

An impressive beast, but hard to think of anything more inaproppriate for Aus firefighting in my personal opinion.
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: crashndash on November 07, 2009, 10:41:30 AM
as has been said before....its all about media spin, photo opportunities and marketing

Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: pumprescue on November 07, 2009, 01:19:34 PM
When will the madness end, just start a backburn at Glenelg, it will stop in Darwin somewhere, could use a good cleanout....
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: SA Firey on November 29, 2009, 09:13:06 AM
CFS should concentrate on getting their training courses into shape rather than spending money on more air support. We have all heard the "Lets hail Elvis" our saviour too many times :-P

On a serious note more Air Tractors would be the better option, but so would supporting ground crews with better resources. 
Title: Re: SA watches trial of giant waterbomber
Post by: BlackDog on December 05, 2009, 09:38:22 PM
Try checking some of the research done by the CSIRO back in the 80's. The concluded that one large bomber would be cost-effective, but that was based on saves on a relatively small number of fires out of the total possible.

This seems a more expensive package.

Bear in mind the drop parameters.
Supposed minimum height is 400'AGL, and the USFS Large Air Tanker project found that they shouldn't be used on country with an overall slope of more than (IIRC)  7 degrees.