SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: CFS_Firey on September 28, 2008, 09:38:25 PM
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Following on from discussion in New 34P (http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=106)...
Coming from a hills brigade where we rarely attack a running grassfire (if ever), I'm not familiar with the requirements for running grassfire attack. Can someone explain why 3 (or more) deck lines are needed for that?
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i would only think you would need Two...one for Inital hit, and 2nd for extinguishing the left over filtered.
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See photo below.
Used in flat areas, where grass fires can travel very quickly. The first truck will go as fast as is safely possible to knock down the flank whilst the following trucks will be making sure there is nothing left alight, and the last truck should be off the truck making sure everything is completely blacked out. Sometimes depending on the fire size there maybe 5 trucks in a line chasing the flank. Theory being by the time the last truck comes past there will be nothing left alight. Once the first truck is empty it pulls away and each truck takes a step up. Its the most efficient way to round up a fire when the flank can be km's long.
Front hose knocks down the flame, taking the heat away. The second hose, set to a powercone/fog takes out the flame completely (where possible) 1/2 on the black stuff 1/2 on the unburnt.
Any questions?
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Ideally you have three crew on the deck. One on each side, and a third to go where the work is (plus keep an eye on pump pressure, tank level & handle comms with the driver/OIC).
In some instances you're working on one side of the truck for some distance, say if the fire has a good head in open grass land and you're just working the flank. In that instance only two crew are really needed, as described by Cam above.
Other times you're needing to work on both sides of the truck. For instance, a fire is coming out of scrub into grassland. When you start chasing fingers and small spot fires, you can be forever alternating from side to side. Having an extra person to go where the work is needed can make quite a difference.
It is surprising how often that third person is used.
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Ok, that makes sense... Thanks :)
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Yeah i understand what the crew deck is for and how important it is for these running grass fires. However i would love to see some better medium so that hills brigades can use the space more efficiently. for example maybe a semi permanent Pod that can be removed when the truck leaves to go to a new brigade?
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I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's?? The crew deck is by far the best way of fire attack and safety for those on the back,3 hose lines are good that way you are not moving from side to side and the 3rd person is also keeping a eye on you back.Grass fire's have and will over run appliances and will result in a burnover... If we look at CFA and NSWRFS they have 3/4 hose lines on the crew working deck.....I have been to mandy grass fire's over the years and i can tell you,you will use all those hoses from the rear and if your the first appliances on scene you will be working ya rear off till help arrives....If we also look at the grassland fire's in western Victoria last year there was a very big chnage in how they where attacked,due to the graa height,wind speed and fire spread they changed their thinking and for the first time in ages went on direct head attack of the fire.
Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...
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Bring back the mad rabbit as that was a good training tool for running grass fire attack from the crew deck :-)
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Bill - I'm sure crew decks are very important for running grassfires, but here in the hills we very rarely get to do that. It doesn't make much sense for us to be wasting all that space just for the odd running grassfire we come across when on a strike team. Give me extra lockers any day.
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Bit hard to do a running grass fire up steep hills! lol
The hills brigades should have the option of an extra locker but then that creates another issue. What extra gear would those brigades get? Where would the extra funding come from? What gear do the hills brigades require that us flat land brigades dont require?
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Rope Rescue, Hazmat, RCR, BA, etc, what ever you can think of...Time for a Palfinger on a 34P - 34P Pod Truck ;)
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Another point to highlight the fact that you can't have a 'one design suits all' approach. By the same token, custom designing a truck for each brigade & their needs would be pretty inefficient too. Finding a balance between the two extremes would be pretty challenging.
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I understand to well what the HILL'S brigade's do, at the end of the day we have to use what we are given and then change it so that it fits into our area....
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I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's??
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Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...
Oddly enough, different Brigades do different kinds of work. Our friends in the hills are also lucky that they don't have huge fields of grass! Don't get so down and sour that those horrible hills brigades have all the hero air support!
Not to drag this off topic, and no doubt a more in depth discussion should take place elsewhere, but as much as people suggest you can't specialise for every Brigade (this is true) its also not hard to come up with a couple of designs for the different types of appliances to cater for their uses across the state. There are enough 'groups' of brigades that do the same work that this should be an achievable goal - its not a case of 100 different prototypes.
The hills brigades should have the option of an extra locker but then that creates another issue. What extra gear would those brigades get? Where would the extra funding come from? What gear do the hills brigades require that us flat land brigades don't require?
It depends on what the Brigade that the appliance is stationed at is qualified in. Some brigades wouldn't have much more equipment to put on, others would have a heap. I know that we have far too many bits and pieces laying around the station that could use a home, from Tirfor's to Cribbing, Ground Monitors and Foam Gear, all that has been taken off the truck due to weight issues or to make way for gear that is more often used. In general it makes the truck more appealling to Brigades that have a large a mount of stowage and don't need the crew deck. More stowage room = better suited to carrying Hazmat and Rescue gear and being a one truck solution for some brigades.
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I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's?? The crew deck is by far the best way of fire attack and safety for those on the back,3 hose lines are good that way you are not moving from side to side and the 3rd person is also keeping a eye on you back.Grass fire's have and will over run appliances and will result in a burnover... If we look at CFA and NSWRFS they have 3/4 hose lines on the crew working deck.....I have been to mandy grass fire's over the years and i can tell you,you will use all those hoses from the rear and if your the first appliances on scene you will be working ya rear off till help arrives....If we also look at the grassland fire's in western Victoria last year there was a very big chnage in how they where attacked,due to the graa height,wind speed and fire spread they changed their thinking and for the first time in ages went on direct head attack of the fire.
Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...
I challenge your two opening comments.
1) It will always depend on the fire, as to whether it is the "best" method. Sometimes a multitude of methods, or a total opposite tactic will best suit a fire.
2) I think being on the crew deck, of a moving appliance, at a fire, is one of the most Hazardous areas to be working in/on!..
3) The skycrane isnt everything.
4) This isnt VIC or NSW, nor is it the CFA or NSWRFS.. Funnily enough, those few hundred (or thousand) kilometres, does equate to a very different fuel load, climatic environment, terrain conditions (etc), and often a whole number of ways to fight fires..
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I challenge your two opening comments.
1) It will always depend on the fire, as to whether it is the "best" method. Sometimes a multitude of methods, or a total opposite tactic will best suit a fire.
2) I think being on the crew deck, of a moving appliance, at a fire, is one of the most Hazardous areas to be working in/on!..
3) The skycrane isnt everything.
4) This isnt VIC or NSW, nor is it the CFA or NSWRFS.. Funnily enough, those few hundred (or thousand) kilometres, does equate to a very different fuel load, climatic environment, terrain conditions (etc), and often a whole number of ways to fight fires..
I challenge your four closing comments, all fires are similar in nature and can be fought from a textbook with a single 'best' method. It doesn't matter about geographical location, fuel loads, weather, winds, local topography, temperature, curing or the fact that it may be grass/scrub/house contents burning - it is all the same. I mean, it all pyrolyses!
Speaking of Vic and NSW, its about time we started backburning everything isn't it? It would save on trucks, we just need command cars with Firebugs ;)
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Being a smart arse again Numbers?.. Struggle to work you out sometimes..
You have only re-iterated my point. . - I don't believe for one minute that you would be naive enough to actually believe there is one single, "best"/ textbook method to fight a fire..
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Being a smart filtered again Numbers?.. Struggle to work you out sometimes..
You have only re-iterated my point. . - I don't believe for one minute that you would be naive enough to actually believe there is one single, "best"/ textbook method to fight a fire..
Well it depends on how determined you are not to have to strike a second bell for the fire.
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Meh, get the lads out.. Dump the house, transmit the box, strike a second, go 2 bells..
;)
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Meh, get the lads out.. Dump the house, transmit the box, strike a second, go 2 bells..
;)
Bugger the 34P and this 'crew deck' thingymabob, wheres my converted HMMWV Brush Truck?
Who cares, lets take the Engine!
:wink:
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Every fire has its own traits and based on the "initial sizeup" determines the best method of attack.
Open grass paddock its easy to pinch off the flanks by chasing it and reducing the head size, a tried and trusted method for years, and ive shown others how it can work to your advantage.Local knowledge also helps.
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"Every fire is different, but their all the same"...yeh man I get it now! :wink:
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Hills brigades & Country Brigades???
What the he'll happened to Urban, Urban/Rural & Rural...
These are the stowages that brigades run [plus of course specialist resources, ie hazmat, rcr, etc] and they in theory determine the build of truck the brigade gets. {lets not forget CFS no longer seem to build an appliance with a suitable crew deck for rural though}
Im relatively sure most of you already realise this....... ;)
Back on point slightly...
The crew decks are fantastic for those brigades that do fight fires on large open expanses... But almost every fire ive been to LOCALLY has been burning out of a gorge, through thick scrub, etc... Where your doing a hoselay and hoping to hell you stop it before it jumps the next gully, so no... not suitable for some areas, Id much rather have more room for better stowage.
Bill - im pretty sure you have 2 FW bombers permenantly stationed down at the mount over the FDS [whilst in contract] along with a spotter plane, and quite regularly get more than just the two, so lets not cry about air support, your doing better than region 4 and 3 ;).
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Hills brigades & Country Brigades???
What the he'll happened to Urban, Urban/Rural & Rural...
You made the distinction in your post. We were talking about brigades in the sticks or *country* that have large, relatively flat expanses of grass/crops in which firefighting efforts cannot be conducted on the ground and need the speed of the truck to keep up. You then pointed out that all of your local fires are in Gorges... or in a *hilly* area, that don't use the Crew Deck, and rely more on a stationary fire attack, using hose lines off the sides of track/roads. Hence it was a reference to the local topography of a Brigades response area.
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"Hence".... it's such a great word, it implies justification for your own words or actions, whilst stickin it up the other.......in a nice way of course :-D
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Hills brigades & Country Brigades???
What the he'll happened to Urban, Urban/Rural & Rural...
You made the distinction in your post. We were talking about brigades in the sticks or *country* that have large, relatively flat expanses of grass/crops in which firefighting efforts cannot be conducted on the ground and need the speed of the truck to keep up. You then pointed out that all of your local fires are in Gorges... or in a *hilly* area, that don't use the Crew Deck, and rely more on a stationary fire attack, using hose lines off the sides of track/roads. Hence it was a reference to the local topography of a Brigades response area.
Yeh thats cool numbers, i know what they were meaning.. i just think that rather than refering to brigades as hills vs country, then querying why hills brigades need diff stowage.... that maybe the proper terminology could be used.
As back in the days of the old 90s build 24s and 34s, the differance in appliance was very noticeable when you went from an urban/rural 24 to a purely rural 24, if ya catch my drift.
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Yeh thats cool numbers, i know what they were meaning.. i just think that rather than refering to brigades as hills vs country, then querying why hills brigades need diff stowage.... that maybe the proper terminology could be used.
As back in the days of the old 90s build 24s and 34s, the differance in appliance was very noticeable when you went from an urban/rural 24 to a purely rural 24, if ya catch my drift.
For sure, I long for the days of old and the different builds, that actually managed to stow the necessary gear. Nothing wrong with the correct terminology, but Rural comprises of many differing ladscapes, and the idea of grass vs. scrub/bush fires isn't addressed using plain Urban/Rural labels. Its the same as trying to compare the Urban firefighting requirements of say Mt. Barker compared to Burnside.
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Nothing wrong with the correct terminology, but Rural comprises of many differing ladscapes, and the idea of grass vs. scrub/bush fires isn't addressed using plain Urban/Rural labels.
Too true.
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How about just Volunteer fire service rather than URBAN/RURAL.... back on topic,We all have differant ways in doing things,we should also remember that is not only grass fire's that we are on the working deck but also crop fire's...I agree 100% sky crane is not the ants pants that people make it to be...
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Bill, we may all be vollunteers, but we all have differant areas and requirements.... hence; urban vs urban/rural vs rural, this in no way implies one is more important than the other.
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How about just Volunteer fire service rather than URBAN/RURAL....
You are an idiot.
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Should not matter if a brigade is urban or rural its only a classification of what the brigade can deal with in its area,,,,,,
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Should not matter if a brigade is urban or rural its only a classification of what the brigade can deal with in its area,,,,,,
Ofcourse it matters! Its what determines what appliances and equipment the brigade should have. I'll be back later I'm going to go slam my face into a wall.
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Wow, this is an ummm interesting forum....
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Wow, this is an ummm interesting forum....
Oh come on, didn't you see the big "Beware: Retards" sign on the front door?
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rotflmao!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Nice one Numbers - I was a bit worried your recent responses have been a bit civilised. But that one is a crack up.
cheers
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Should not matter if a brigade is urban or rural its only a classification of what the brigade can deal with in its area,,,,,,
(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)(http://www.lureandmore.com/images/smilies/sFun_duh2.gif)
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if it doesn't matter if the brigade is urban or rural what does matter? lets give 2 jobs per year brigades brontos??
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Bugger me . . . . a relatively benign question doesn't take long to turn in to a bitch session, does it??
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:x Keep it on topic. The topic of this thread is Grass fires from the crew deck.
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lets give 2 jobs per year brigades brontos??
:x Keep it on topic. The topic of this thread is Grass fires from the crew deck.
Can we take this discussion to its logical extension and include fighting Grass Fires from the Cage of the Bronto?
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:x Keep it on topic. The topic of this thread is Grass fires from the crew deck.
Firefrog - all bitching and moaning from some asied in this topic. I believe the discussion re; urban/rural classifications is on topic, as it determines whether the crew decks are even on appliances.... :?
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At the end of the day we attack fire's differently and at the end of the day we have to use the appliances that CFS give us,Urban brigade's should have more locker space so as to take all the gear that they have,rural brigade's like a crew deck that is able to be used down the side of water tank giving access to both side's..
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From a person who does not mann this type of vehicle, how difficult is it to create a removable locker cabinet/pod or anchor points on the crew deck ?
Yes it would take time to remove the locker when on a strike team, so you have a crew deck again. But you have a notification before the requirement.
If majority of the incidents need the extra equipment...could some of the equipment could be rachet strapped to the crew deck area ??
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for hazmats, we tend to just "throw" everything thats not stowed on the truck, into the Crew deck....
Maybe a locally owned truck with a Palfinger could assist with maintaining some sort of Pod system with 34P's...only an idea...
CFS dont need to go to the expense of buying one themselves...
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Come on guys the question was grass fire from the crew deck, Camo had it right.
thats how we do it in the good old flat land, we prefer no more than 3 on the back. Just swap side if required or educate the driver to stay on the burnt ground then you dont have to swap sides.
First hose, Jet just forward of front wheel, second hose just behind that on a power cone. And yes as Camo stated we have to get of the truck too.
As for extra lockers on a 34, cant see the point defeats it purpose, get the urban /rural guys a 24. hang on they don't produce 24's anymore just 34p's
hope this helps.
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Robert34 asked about the MAD RABBIT,well it may be coming back as the group officer who made it is looking at making a new one that will meet all the OHSW requirements. It came up last year when i was on the regional training committee and we all agreed at the time that it was something that needed looking at. I have seen photos of this set up and the crews at work looks very interesting.....
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2) I think being on the crew deck, of a moving appliance, at a fire, is one of the most Hazardous areas to be working in/on!..
Coming from a brigade who has running grass and crop fires that can travel at speeds up to 80kph 90% of the time, That's why we have driver training, I agree with you if your driver hasn't a clue, Otherwise crew decks and 3 deck lines are the best way to combat these fires.
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Following on from discussion in New 34P (http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=106)...
Coming from a hills brigade where we rarely attack a running grassfire (if ever), I'm not familiar with the requirements for running grassfire attack. Can someone explain why 3 (or more) deck lines are needed for that?
Knock down, Contain, Mop up It's like the saying 2 heads are better than one well 3 lines are bette than 2 :-)
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Basicly it sound to me like the CFS needs to investigate the possibility of spliting rural trucks into 2 designs Hills\Forest appliances (without crew deck) & Plains\Flatlands Appliances (with crew deck)
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sounds good Sarge!
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That would be the way to go and would make life easy when it comes to moving on appliances after they ahve been in a busy brigade for 4/5 years...
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:x Keep it on topic. The topic of this thread is Grass fires from the crew deck.
Firefrog - all bitching and moaning from some asied in this topic. I believe the discussion re; urban/rural classifications is on topic, as it determines whether the crew decks are even on appliances.... :?
Yes - Agree as long as the point of the discussion on urban/rural is intended to support a discussion on the topic of grass fire attack from the crew deck....... :-)
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Is the monitor seen on the front of Dalkeith's 34 a way of the future for the quick knock-down of a running grass fire ?
In the scenario described, you still would have two on the crew deck for blacking out I assume.
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nah you wouldnt have crew on the crew deck for blackening out....pretty much only for Knocking the fire down...
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The only way to black out a fire is to get off the truck.
The 24 specials were the answer to a hill/forrest appliance. In reality the 34's have moved more towards that theory anyway.
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On the ground, hose in one hand, axe in the other - The only way to black out! ;)
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dont forget the BA set - leave the mask in the truck ;) :roll:
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And here I was being serious for once... :D
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an axe??? i thought that was what the macleod tool was for numbers ;)
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Nothing gets through logs/trees/bark/rocks/fenceposts/etc like an axe. Push, pull, chop, slice, knock, wegde, lever! MacLoed tool is great... for cutting fire breaks and structural overhaul! ;)
I used to be a MacLeod man, but then saw the light! :evil:
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I used to be a MacLeod man, but then saw the light! :evil:
I used to be a McLeod man too, but then I became an officer. :-D :-D
McLeods are better for digging over piles of smouldering rubbish & root
systems than an axe. We'd see more of these than logs & etc needing opening.
On-topic.... being from a Hills brigade, fighting running fires from the
crew deck is something we just don't do. Easy to pick the brigades that do
though... they are the ones trying to mop-up or black-out scrub from the crew
deck.
There is a time & a place to do the crew deck thing.
There's also a time & place to get off the truck with axe, rakehoe, & live
reel, & burn some serious calories.
Who actually teaches officers how to tell the difference??
cheers
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I used to be a MacLeod man, but then saw the light! :evil:
I used to be a McLeod man too, but then I became an officer. :-D :-D
McLeods are better for digging over piles of smouldering rubbish & root
systems than an axe. We'd see more of these than logs & etc needing opening.
Haha, for sure. I just don't want to confuse the black and white arguments that happen around here by suggesting that what you use all depends on the situation ;)
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Cmon im sure Mr Mcleod, must be kicking himself for inventing that now lol
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Robert34 asked about the MAD RABBIT,well it may be coming back as the group officer who made it is looking at making a new one that will meet all the OHSW requirements. It came up last year when i was on the regional training committee and we all agreed at the time that it was something that needed looking at. I have seen photos of this set up and the crews at work looks very interesting
I remember doing the Mad Rabbit exercise at group training days when i was a cadet it was fun chasing after a trailer with live fire coming out of it :wink:
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Not everyone needs a specific hills/forest or grass/crop design. Our area includes everything from level grasslands and crops to hills so steep you can hardly drag a hose up. We have the older build 34p (2005? build) and this appliance suits us perfectly.
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wow that mad rabbit sounds like something sparks and wildfire might use? :-P
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The only way to black out a fire is to get off the truck.
Unless of course there's nothing left to turn, move, scratch, itch, or trip over. Picture a bit of sandy country, the whispy grass has been burnt to nothing and there's not so much as a cow turd smouldering within 20m of the former fireline, and I reckon you can do if from the crew deck.
However, if there is a chance of a root, stick, vegetation, bug, etc then it most certainly requires proper attention from the rakehoe/boot.