SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: The Assistant on March 16, 2007, 05:07:54 PM
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Can some one explain to me why when we are all in the same service that there is so much brigade and group rivalry that they respond not just once or twice but constantly into others response areas without the courtesy of giving other briagdes a "call". I know of at least three instances in the last two days which are prime examples of brigades and groups responding well outside their normal areas (and not for specialist taskings either like road crash or tanker) but just a normal response. Quiet frankly I find this whole thing appauling that such rivalries get in the way of us offering a "proper" service that we all seem to think we belong to. We all blame "the establishment" for a lowering in morale of fire fighters, but I think that we need to look closer to home for a lowering of morale quiet frankly its a kick in the guts.
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We havent had that problem as such but a few groups around here will respond every truck in their group before responding neighbouring groups appliances even though they maybe closer.
A few weeks ago there was an incident at the Auspine mill in Tarpeena. Tarpeena, Pleasant Park & Wandilo were called but not Nangwarry who is only 7km from Tarpeena and closer then the rest. Compton was then called for night shift who are further away again.
Am i missing something or are we not all on the same team!
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BRING ON CAD..... we dont have that problem,as we have a large area to cover and support we always call the next group and that is also extended to CFA who we have a great working relationship with....If you ask me if you go into another brigade/group area you should give them a call,I bet you would not like it if they came into your area...
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hey, our brigade has been turned out for a couple of calls out side their area, i only know about the one cause i went. it was about 2.30 in the morn and we got paged for a fire at hackham how ever it turned out on the expressway at renella but were advised to go up a bike track near ohalleren hill. when the officer iquired if morphett or a closer brigade had been responded, im not sure of the response but he got the distinct impression the person on the other end took an immediate dislike to him. we eventually got there and found chrities mfs had put it out, but every one had the feeling ohaleron would have been closer. when back at the station we looked at it, we are dual response whith morphett any way and defaulted just befor we got the truck out, but no other brigade was called out. so dont just put the blame on the brigades,the captain came down bout 4 to fill out the 2nd inccident form of being called out as initial response to some were not in our area. also at that time in the morn if we had phoned the another brigade to say we were going in there area no one would have been there. we did the next best thing and told SHQ we were not the closest brigade and asked if morphett had been responded
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Don't forget that the group is sometimes aware of things that we may not be and direct their resources accordingly - like an appliance offline or something.
If we imagine a 'CFS' response to an incident, you get blinkered and consider which is the closest brigade, and their capacity given the specialist equipment they have.
I'd hope tat people are thinking 'emergency service' response - immediately the blinkers are down and we're considering MFS, CFA, forest company resources, private units, SAPOL, SAAS, SASES (and the list goes on!). Much better way to frame an incident.
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I think this is a problem that needs to be looked at, for instatnce the last 3 willunga fires that have had strike teams, Mt compass just up the road and probably 3rd closest station was sitting there for hours and was only called when the Mundoo strike team was called in now that is filtered silly.
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Isn't it also about not committing all of your local resources to one job? What if something else happens in the area? Then you've got no appliances free to respond to it.
I'm keenly aware of group/brigade rivalry, but many decisions about resource allocation take intelligence (as in info, not nous) into account that is not always obvious from brigade level - it's not only about sending your closest appliance, it's also about strategically responding crews so as not to leave a key asset unprotected should something else crop up.
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When there is a big job going down is there such thing as a logical decision in the first 30 mins?
I can understand about not putting all your eggs in one basket but really the 5 closest resources should be responded? At the worst you would have to divert crews if there was another incident.
When it comes to strike teams etc then skipping groups/brigades it all makes sense.
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forget what other people are doing... ya cant help jackasses from stuffing decisions they somehow feel qualified to make... there the ones that will be liable in the end.
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I would have to agree the closet brigade should be sent and then you do COQ to fill in these empty stations how hard is that?? But some groups don't do that and would rather leave them empty or get private units that already in some area's to be on stand by in case anything else happens....The good thing about CAD is that it will send/page the closet resource but this can be overridden by SHQ or the group.
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Ah, didn't realise we had secret closet brigades, that's ok then :lol:
I don't know if I'd be all that thrilled about sitting around doing change of quarters to a rural CFS brigade that has not many calls a year when I know full well they are out there doing the hard yards at a going job... And equally as a volunteer I don't want to be pulled off the fireline to respond to a no carrier alarm (as a cringe-worthy 'just in case' example) in our area?
JMO (oops, those filtered acronyms again - 'Just My Opinion'). I'd rather be skipped completely and go about my business until the pager goes off for another job.
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hey, our brigade has been turned out for a couple of calls outside their area, I only know about the one cause I went. it was about 2.30 in the morn and we got paged for a fire at hackham west,however it turned out on the expressway at Reynella but were advised to go up a bike track near O'Halloran Hill. when the officer inquired if morphett or a closer brigade had been responded, im not sure of the response but he got the distinct impression the person on the other end took an immediate dislike to him. we eventually got there and found chrities mfs had put it out, but every one had the feeling O'Halloran Hill would have been closer. when back at the station we looked at it, we are dual response whith morphett any way and defaulted just before we got the truck out, but no other brigade was called out. so dont just put the blame on the brigades,the captain came down about 4 to fill out the 2nd incident form of being called out as initial response to some were not in our area. also at that time in the morn if we had phoned the another brigade to say we were going in there area no one would have been there. we did the next best thing and told SHQ we were not the closest brigade and asked if morphett had been responded
Seaford was originally turned out with Christies to Grass Fire,Southern Expressway Hackham West 431,8334 which is why you got the call.
On going mobile MFS Comms advised 431 that it was 500m north of Young St,Reynella.
O'Halloran Hill were not dispatched as the expressway was city bound,its quicker for Christie Downs to attend.As you were already mobile they did'nt bother to respond another brigade.
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I'd rather be skipped completely and go about my business until the pager goes off for another job.
So you go about your business, blissfully unaware, and then you see your next door brigade, their next door brigade, and their next door brigade, going screaming past, lights and sirens to a fire, and you start to think "Hey, how come we weren't called, we're closer then them...." :x
In my experience, it is rare that a brigade is deliberately not responded ' eg "We won't call Hicksville brigade because we don't like them"
In recent calls outs, there seem to be two reasons why the nearest brigade is not called:
One is in the chaos of a large & escalating call, the OIC from the fire ground calls up and says "Respond brigades X, Y, Z " But, somewhere between that request being made, and a pager message being sent out, in the chaos, confusion etc, things get lost, and only brigades X & Y get called, even though brigade Z is really the next closest brigade.
The second reason that nearest brigade is not called is not necessarily a deliberate not calling of a brigade, but a mindset.
Again, we have a call to a fire, but no appliances are there yet. Everyone can see the smoke. (and not just "smoke in area") There have been multiple calls from the public reporting the fire. It's a fire ban day.
A Group Duty Officer (GDO) responds, and take control of the situation, and decides to call more resources, even though we have several others on the way. So the GDO calls the first brigades that pop into his / her head - which just happen to be brigades from within his / her own group, or brigades that work closely with that Group...and so brigades from the other side of the area are being responded, while the next nearest brigade, which is in another Group, is not responded......
Some may suggest that SACAD will solve this problem, it may assist, but I don't think it will entirely fix the problem......
Perhaps abolishing Groups might change things.... :evil:
Pip
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Perhaps abolishing Groups might change things.
This was rumour was making the rounds about a year ago. Not entirely a stupid idea.
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Having been involved at the last fire a willunga I can say that within a short time most of the Kyeema group were committed. I believe that only 2 or 3 appliances were not used. After the initial group response the rest of the brigades were responded by Region 1. The group officer asked for 3 strike teams One consisting of 14's. The decision was up to region as to who was sent. The 1st brigades called were Willunga, Aldinga Beach and Range-Hope forrest. Then it was McLaren Vale, Sellicks and Yundi. I think that only McLaren Vale and Aldinga had anything left at station. By looking at a map Mt Compass is as faraway from the fire as the last responded brigades from kyeema group.
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Look all i can say is that when your brigade doesn't get called to something that is defiantly closer to you than the attending brigade or brigades is that IT SUCKS and shouldn't happen.
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For info also, if you are responded into MFS area and you default then MFS will not send another brigade because you are only a BONUS to the MFS response due to EMA boundaries. The only time they will send a default brigade is if you are specifically asked for or if MFS are short of appliances and you are actually replacing an MFS appliance.
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I think some of you have completely missed the point, I was talking about brigades not being responded to INCIDENTS in their OWN brigade response areas. But some of you have obviously experienced this others have not, the rumour is that the 30 MFS responded brigades will be moving to SACAD in a months time and I find it difficult to understand how SACAD is going to fix the problems when there has been little or no consultation in terms of areas and things like who we think would be the closest appliance at certain times of the day, I mean lets be honest the people that know our response areas best are US. I will believe that SACAD has fixed our problems when I see it. :-o
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It does happy and you have to wounder why?????
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I thought SACAD was all GPS and computer run so it doesn't actauly need any input other that topography roads and addresses.
That point of using GPS on trucks was to make closest appliance goes no matter where the incident is. so Salisbury 321 could be in glenelg and if the grand went up they would be responded solely because their truck is there. just my 2c
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Eh...no.
For SACAD to work as efficiently as possible, it requires large amounts of data input, which, at least on info provided so far, which may include things like local landmarks, property names, RAPID Numbers, GPS coordinates, or any other piece of info that might be helpful in identifying locations......
The more input at a local level, the more accurate & useful the data can be.
And, if each brigade / Group has what it considers to be its area, come up with their data, and the adjoining brigade / Group does the same, then you may end up with areas being claimed by two Groups (or two services). It'll then be up to someone higher up the chain to sort these sorts of issues out........ :|
I fear that SACAD has been sold as a fix to all problems... but I can't see it being able to fix everything..... (A bit like the GRN radios, but we won't go there!! )
How well SACAD will work remains to be seen........
Pip
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SACAD should bring an end to this brigade/group rivalry as "Boundries" or "Response areas" will be purely for admin purpose.. i.e who completes the primary report.
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"Pip" and "The Assistant" you are right.
It does work on data entry, but the problem is still going to exist of incorrect information given at the time of the call.
Not all people what ring up and report an incident are from the local area therefore, have a good possibility in making mistakes of roads they are on, suburbs they are in etc, etc, etc.
The problem about response zone in certain areas can be fixed quite easy by making a dual response crossover zone as some brigades have already done this with SAMFS-BOMS.
For example some hills groups within region 1.
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And that is exactly why we still need to have local input...and not just through a computer program....
But I'm not sure if that is in the Grand Plan or not ........
Pip
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Look SACAD is only as good as the information that will need to be collected by each brigade / group and hope that those up the ladder load it into the computer correctly..Having said that and with SACAD being the same as VICFIRE cad I strongly enforce all members to have a input..Why well Our nearest CFA brigade have had a number of serious MVA'S under the old system Naracoorte would be paged as RCR brigade. However when they cut over to the new system it would not recognise CFS/NSWFB/RFS rescue/hazmat/CABA brigade's. I was able to get a friend to follow up who is a CFA volunteer but also works for VICFIRE and he was able to point out this problem to those at the top. They are still not sure how this problem came about and are still looking into it..... So make sure you all have a say and provide all the correct information...
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the rumour is that the 30 MFS responded brigades will be moving to SACAD in a months time and I find it difficult to understand how SACAD is going to fix the problems when there has been little or no consultation in terms of areas and things like who we think would be the closest appliance at certain times of the day.
Where did you come across this info? Are'nt the MFS still going to be doing the CRD? If it is the case then i would suggest the MFS have done the deciding for you.
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I suggest you all speak to HQ about SACAD, 99% of what is written on here is incorrect, HQ can fill you in on all the details. But there has been one point made that is true, boundries will only be for the purposes of paperwork, when it comes to an incident, they will mean nothing.
I would venture to say SACAD will be one of the biggest, if not biggest change to the emergency services ever, I hope you all look at it with open eye's, it will be hard for some of the old stick in the mud's, or the dynasty group officers.
It has to be better than (and I quote a real instance of when I dialled 000 in a country area I was passing through)
"You are being connected to ****** Country Fire Service"
Female answers " Hello"
I answer "have I reached the fire service?"
Female says "Hang on I will get my husband"
WHAT THE HELL !!!!!!!!!!
It has to be better than this Dad's Army system we have now, professional call takers at last !! From what I understand from the roadshow, ALERTS will only be a backup system, will all be direct paging.
SACAD will only be as good as the data WE put into it, so come on people, lets embrace this and help the new system get off the ground.
As for brigade rivalry, its like football teams, cricket teams, it won't change. I am sure cave men had rivalries to, its just how we humans are !
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"pumprescue"
why would I want to talk to hq, when I can get my answers from region.
people are optimistic cos the region are.
you state that the information is incorrect, well you tell us if you have the answers. (facts not fiction)
Anyone can have a roadshow and make something look pretty and if I remember when the roadshows went around a lot of questions were asked with no answers given "reason they did not no".
I do not disagree "pumprescue" when it comes in and works correctly it will be good for the service we are in, and the community we serve. But their will be anger and frustration for the brigades who are not confident with the system. You state about "dad's army" you need to remember they are part of the service and they are part of the team. It is our responsibility as a whole to help these core team people to understand and accept change instead of knocking.
:-)
I hope it does go well :-) for the sake of the community :-)
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what and see what happens it still has to get of the ground(SACAD) and who is going to run it the MFS or SAFECOM????
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The best way to ease the fears is to be part of the process, and all brigades and group are the one's that will be telling SACAD the information. If you don't provide the info, then don't blame the system. Think of everything now, landmarks, local names, etc etc. The system is only as good as the data you collect. My brigade has sat down with all the streets and special risks in our area and revisited what we currently do and then submitted that to group for when SACAD visit us. Some may see this as a pain in the backside, but a little bit of work now and we can finally have a proffesional system in place, I for one am looking forward to it.
No more of the "I think that's who we will respond, sounds good" or "lets dump the entire group, but not respond a brigade 10 times closer because they are not in our group" or worse still "State HQ, this is so and so captain, I will jump in the ute and check out that alarm, no need for brigade response" completely ignoring COSO's.
In this day and age, its simply not good enough to do those things anymore, the community expects a better service than that, and its up to us to provide.
Here is to a brighter and more organised future. :-)
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do we have a time line for the introduction of SACAD?
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here, here,
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do we have a time line for the introduction of SACAD?
No
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do we have a time line for the introduction of SACAD?
2050 AD :-D
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do we have a time line for the introduction of SACAD?
2050 AD :-D
Ah good, the Cyborg Employment Act 2047 will be in place by then :-D
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So you have done all your changes and response areas and sent all the paperwork back in, but herein lies the problem.MFS havent changed the data base YET
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Give it time. SACAD is yet to take effect, and there is ALOT of data input required..
Im sure its not far from the horizon..
8-)
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Victoria went to a similar sort of system some time ago...and had two (paid)people working on the collection of the data...from memory, from what we were told, it took them seven years to collect the data across the state...if anyone else can clarify that for me...it was a while ago that we had the official presentation on this subject... :|
Pip
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victoria is also alot more complex then SA.
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victoria is also alot more complex then SA.
We SA folk are a simple lot, wouldn't you say?
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Reckon the good old Google Maps API will be featured in SACAD???....would certainly be good for the open community to have bushfire warnings visually presented on a map.
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Pip, you are correct it took just over 7 years to collect all data and then review it send it back out to brigade's and groups and then start the test period. Victoria is a lot bigger and there where also other issues with MFS/SES/PORTS/ and other goverment agencys... How ever its been working well with a few hick ups but now works better is its under the control of EMS and not intergraph......but that is another story....
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Pip, you are correct it took just over 7 years to collect all data and then review it send it back out to brigade's and groups and then start the test period.
lol and how many new estates, roads etc popped up in the meantime....
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Victoria is a lot bigger and there where also other issues with MFS/SES/PORTS/ and other goverment agencys...
I always thought Victoria was a lot smaller than SA... and don't we have lots of government agencies as well? :|
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Vic has a lot more streets/people/towns than SA. SA has a lot of wasteland and deserts.
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Victoria is a lot bigger and there where also other issues with MFS/SES/PORTS/ and other goverment agencys...
I always thought Victoria was a lot smaller than SA... and don't we have lots of government agencies as well? :|
Over four times the size I think. Maybe 5271rescue meant that there are more people per unit of area in Victoria? That's certainly the case. Higher population, denser population, more life risk over a greater percentage of the state than SA - we're all spread out here, prefer not to live in each others pockets :lol: And yep, a whole host of goverment agencies.
Ath what you call wasteland and deserts comprises some of the most stunning natural scenery South Australia has to offer. I highly reccommend a trip up north :-)
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And many more fire brigades across the state of Victoria, than SA...
Pip
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there are not too many streets/roads in the desert. I lived in Whyalla for 4 years, theres not much to see. :-D :-D
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sorry about that,I ment VIC as more streets/roads/towns/and so on and as pip said more fire brigade's than SA and lots of urban risks... So have they worked out who is going to run SACAD is it going to be the MFS or safecom????? My understanding is MFS as they already do CFS paging.......
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MFS Comcen will be doing the paging for SACAD, but there is a lot more to SACAD than just paging.
SAFECOM are the administrative/beauracratic layer on top, they don't run anything operationally-speaking.
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I was right, i was telling someone the other day that MFS will be doing all the paging and he said I was wrong....but then again I have had a few people say that if MFS dont do it then SAFECOM will set a a unit to do it all.....
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I was right, i was telling someone the other day that MFS will be doing all the paging and he said I was wrong....but then again I have had a few people say that if MFS dont do it then SAFECOM will set a a unit to do it all.....
Dont care who does it just as long as they have trained operators unlike the current situation.
And they follow the guidelines
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I was right, i was telling someone the other day that MFS will be doing all the paging and he said I was wrong....but then again I have had a few people say that if MFS dont do it then SAFECOM will set a a unit to do it all.....
Dont care who does it just as long as they have trained operators unlike the current situation.
And they follow the guidelines
Current Situation ??? Non trained operators?? Oh do tell...
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Ahhh if your talking about SOCC then what do you base that opinion on????
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No im referring to MFS Comms.
They use people on compo as comms people?
Well thats what im led to believe.
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No im referring to MFS Comms.
They use people on compo as comms people?
Well thats what im led to believe.
Partly true. It's a position that is certainly suitable for trained firefighters with an understanding of the system to still be functioning after (god forbid) a terrible accident/illness/injury that takes away their ability to respond as normal. But that doesn't mean they are thrown in there without training Camo.
They deal with responses for a number of different organisations that have their individual requirements, so on top of answering 000 calls to pacify someone freaking out at the other end of the line, they also have to think about what SES wants them to do for that particular incident type, or what CFS requires for that area. Obviously that's an easier task for CFS as we have similar structure and calls to MFS and they are used to the mechanism for responding. SES is a bit of a harder basket due to the dissimilarities to what MFS are used to working with.
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I have met some of the guys in MFS comms and they say the problem isn't their training but the response plans. Also remember these guys might be dispatching the brigades and not have a clue what part of the state the brigade is in.
Lastly MFS are dispatched by themselves taking the 000 call and then throught the incident they report with MDT about their status.
CFS get dispatched by MFS then report to SHQ and then do comms though their station meaning that knowone outside the incident has any idea of the trucks current status or location.
end rant
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Funnily enough the government have aknowledged this fact and are implimenting SACAD. So like i say, everyone get their response plans sorted now. Some of you may have seen the new maps getting around showing your brigade with a specific colour showing which area's you can get to first, this might be interesting and hard for a few brigades to swallow, but it will be good for the community. I am looking forward to the services getting a professional response system for once.
There are some that think it won't work, but please please get it through to your fellow members that the system is only as good as the data you put in it. Its going to happen anyway, its success depends on us helping get it right.
The rest of the world does it, so why should we be any different.
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MFS Comms have the flexibility to make the call on who is sent to an area given information on what appliance is nearest or available. So there is human input to the process, which works well when you have a full understanding of MFS appliance whereabouts at your fingertips, as they do.
The thing about SACAD is it is a fixed system, which is the only way to go if we are centralising the turnout of crews because (as noted before) MFS Comms don't know the area they are turning out crews to. So we need to rely more heavily on a computer aided dipatch.
As for getting back to the thread purpose within this post, I can't imagine ever being involved in this process as a mere volunteer pleb. I haven't even heard SACAD mentioned nor seen any maps of our area as a volly. I hope I'm wrong in thinking it will be just another example of where the group does the lot and barely consults the brigades, let alone the firefighters :roll:
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To err is human to really stuff things up requires a computer :-P
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As for getting back to the thread purpose within this post, I can't imagine ever being involved in this process as a mere volunteer pleb. I haven't even heard SACAD mentioned nor seen any maps of our area as a volly. I hope I'm wrong in thinking it will be just another example of where the group does the lot and barely consults the brigades, let alone the firefighters :roll:
Its a big worry isnt it? Pity our group is run by a bunch of...... I better leave it there.
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Come on cam its not taht bad yet,wait till you all become one happy group down there that will/should be fun.......
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Come on cam its not taht bad yet,wait till you all become one happy group down there that will/should be fun.......
Am i missing something?
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all of this hurts my brain.
surely, logic can just prevail and simply whoever is closest to the reported location of the call responds. If the call is not reported correctly and is in another brigades area that brigade is responded and when they arrive on scene the 2 or more OIC's work things out. not hard.
as for WHY certain brigades or groups don't respond others, that one is simple too. Morale. We think we're better than everyone else.
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probationary one
the word is not "morale" its "ego"
:-D
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does ego drive self turnouts?
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does ego drive self turnouts?
I don't know, but comments like that are unnecessary.
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perhaps its a matter of more inter-group training....
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Maybe we should have more inter-brigade/group BA Soccer matches.
HAHA.
Hmmm, think i remember this topic becoming a long debate before...
OOooops
:-D
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soccer sounds good or may be a cricket match,but then again CFS does not understand fun or common sense...........