SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: pumprescue on June 01, 2007, 03:00:43 PM
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I am noticing more and more that people are wearing their PBI and rural helmets, are people getting confused, or are we not explaining the difference in helmets to people?
I have seen several people wearing them, and pictures on the promotions site with brigades wearing rural helmets, eg Bordertown and the recent shed fire at Meningie.
Is this a serious problem or are people just forgetful? It just worries me that we aren't explaining things clearly, it was highlighted in my own brigade with a member that transferred from a Region 6 brigade, he had no idea, we issued him a Cairns 660 and it sits on the shelf, he got caught out the other day going to a building fire with a rural helmet, he seriously didn't know.
Who is to blame here, I think our lack of official guidlines regarding PPE is to blame, we were told by region to refer to the volunteer article on PPE for the guidelines.
What do you guys think?
(PS: Adam from Meningie, I mean no offence, but the picture speaks for itself I am afraid, by the way, good job saving all that you did, crew needs a pat on the back)
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Yes it is a worry.....Don't forget that to make a garment structure fire rated you need the whole kit, PBI pants and coat, Structure helmet, Structure boots, Structure gloves and Flash hood.
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I Honestly don't know yet one training night i put on my structure gear (Nomex I am waiting :|) and grabbed my structure helmet to be warned by a brigade member that the captain had told him off for wearing his structure helmet. I was only going to let it sit in the truck and as it was raining i thought i could assume if there happened to be a call it would require structure gear. ???
Personally what are the guidelines
At a RCR PBI and rural helmet sounds reasonable
and how come some captains ware structure helmets to bushfires yet FF get in trouble? ( you are stupid if you do)
Should Non BA get structure helmets? ( and does your brigade issue them?)
end rant ( I might start a new on later)
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How does it make it stupid to wear a structure helmet to a bushfire? A structure helmet is all some people use, i personally have had no problems with wearing one for any type of job.
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Those of us who have structural helmets wear them to everything, but you can wear a rural if you want to, and thanks for calling me stupid, but anyway, I take it off when going for water to abide by the no longer than 45 mins rule.
The issue with taking the rural helmet for all jobs is that from where I am your more than likely to get a run on call and its more than likely to be an urban job, also, not all the visors for rural helmets are rated for RCR work, and frankly, those helmets are pretty poxy. But I guess its up to the wearer, just remember, if you go to a BA job, don't bl**y wear it !! You are far better off wearing the structural all the time in my humble opinion, but there are no handouts with the guidelines, so it seems to be up to out of touch group officers to make up the rules, some of which haven't fought a fire since khaki overalls were in fashion !
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Bittenyakka I think the reason you should not wear a rural helmet at an R.C.R. incident is the visor on them does not provide the shatter resistance of an urban helmet. I could be wrong but thats what I heard.
As for guys wearing rural PPE at a structure and PBI gold to rural incidents I think it can be stopped at brigade level with proper training and policing from Capt's Lt's and Seniors.
But in saying that I'm a bit naughty and wear my urban helmet everywhere. Don't like the rural helmets, never felt fatigued due to wearing it and already have two sets of gear cant be bothered with lugging around another helmet.
:-D
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Ok
I stand corrected on the RCR bit i didn't consider the shatter resistance of the visor. :-o
Mabey more freedom in what helmet your wear is required and not having people higher up who will blast you for taking the wrong one. :oops:
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The older type structure helmets (bullard type) were awfully heavy and completely unsuitable to wear at rural jobs. The newer Cairns etc helmets are so much lighter most people dont have a drama wearing them for everything. Saves carrying 2 helmets.
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I wear my structure helmet to bushfires...it is much more comfortable than the rural one I have (the rural one gives me a headache, the structural one doesn't)
The biggest problem of all is that we have so many different bits of gear, designed for different roles - rural gear, structural gear, and as I understand it, we get rural & structural boots too!!
I was at a meeting this week, where a Regional Commander made the comment that we still don't have guidelines for when we can wear PBI Gold, and when we can't....so if the staff don't know, how can we be expected to know?
In addition to that, there seems to be mass confusion about Nomex gear too....can we still wear it to bushfires (minus the liner, and can we still purchase it new, or can we only by new Proban gear...?
Is it any wonder people get confused as to what they are meant to wear when?
Perhaps CFS could look at purchasing the new helmets desgined for both - you remove the outer skin of the helmet to swap from one to the other.....
Pip
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Pip i wouldnt eaven think of touching the two shell helmets the outer shell is not sucured properly and dosnt take much to disloge the best helmet i have found so far is the scott aspen only because the visors and harneses are the same for structal and rural helmets ( and no its not a sales pitch ) just what ive found out as equipment officer
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I can see some issues with those dual purpose helmets as people wearing them will forget which shell is on the helmet.
Personally i see nothing wrong wearing a structural helmet to a rural job I've been doing it for years. Even when we did have bullards. I have not yet fallen over!
If you want to wear a rural helmet go for it, but some clowns just have to remember than you cant use them for anything else.
Pip i wear my old level 3 nomex gear to rural jobs with the liner out. Seems to be stronger and better wearing than the proban garbage. PBI gold to structure and R.C.R. incidents as our R.C.R. equipment is on our urban appliance and we have sometimes been responded from one job to the other. Keep rural gear in a bag just in case.
If you wait for the paid staff to work out what to do and not to do. We will be in the next ice age and not have to worry about it.
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The older type structure helmets (bullard type) were awfully heavy and completely unsuitable to wear at rural jobs. The newer Cairns etc helmets are so much lighter most people dont have a drama wearing them for everything. Saves carrying 2 helmets.
How do you tell the difference? all i know is my structure helmet weights a ton :-)
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I wear my structural to all incidents.. Quite frankly I dont think the Rural helmets offer the same level of protection, and hence I won't wear one... - The day someone tries to make me wear one, is the day I don't get on an appliance. - Safety First .. (Hey, i've heard that somewhere !!)
8-)
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How many people check the date of manufacturing on there helmets?? Not sure the fully story but we had to supply the dates from our urban helmets to the group equip officer????
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I wear my structural to all incidents.. Quite frankly I dont think the Rural helmets offer the same level of protection, and hence I won't wear one... - The day someone tries to make me wear one, is the day I don't get on an appliance. - Safety First .. (Hey, i've heard that somewhere !!)
Same here - we're not even issued with rural helmets, and I've never had a problem with my structural...
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Structure helmets all the way.
PBI gold at MVA's can be a little bit awkward in small places for the rcr operators, but if needed it offers a good blood and sweat lining.....
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you guys have two differant helmets???
another waste of money.....
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We have also been issued 2 helmets... not that i ever use the rural one. Donated my rural to a needy cadet who was still using a top gaurd....
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How many people check the date of manufacturing on there helmets?? Not sure the fully story but we had to supply the dates from our urban helmets to the group equip officer????
I understand that helmets have a shelf life before they are deemed unsafe. I am not sure of specifics, but that is what I have been advised.
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was told if you have dropped them from the truck or on to cement they should be replaced straight away. Structural and wildfire helmets have a life span of 5 to 7 years well thats what my group have said then we have to replace them after that.
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was told if you have dropped them from the truck or on to cement they should be replaced straight away. Structural and wildfire helmets have a life span of 5 to 7 years well thats what my group have said then we have to replace them after that.
hmmm thats a worry... i cant imagine how many times my helmet has gone for a tumble due to various reasons..... :P
also re; the lifespan, that sucks.... i dont think they make our helmets anymore do they ? cairns 660s.....
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hmmm thats a worry... i cant imagine how many times my helmet has gone for a tumble due to various reasons..... :P
also re; the lifespan, that sucks.... i dont think they make our helmets anymore do they ? cairns 660s.....
You can still buy Cairns 660 helmets in white, not in yellow! Have just placed order for some in the last week with our supplier.
We also have rural and structural, but rural dont get used much as members perfer wearing structural helmets.
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You can still buy Cairns 660 helmets in white, not in yellow!
maybe thats what im thinking of....
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I love wearing my topguard. Its light and comfortable. I wear it everywhere.
please, that bit was a joke.
na I only have a structural helmet, and I'm happy with that setup. I've tried on and seen the rural helmets and I feel like im wearing a bike helmet.
structural lid every time.
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Structure helmet FTW.
Rural helmet FTL.
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As if jonno, rural helmet without a visor FTW!!!
Im still waiting for my structure... hrmmm
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Structure helmet FTW.
Rural helmet FTL.
Translation?
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FTW - for the win - meaning better than the competition...
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Must be a seaford thing....
And yes there is a srtructure boot and non structure boot, they both look the same but the structure boot has a steel toe...
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Does any one have 2 sets of boots? I can Say structure all the way for boots? :-D
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Structure helmets have a life of ten years from the date stamp on the inside of the helmet (fact) and of cause it is not a good idea to drop your helmet, leave it in the sun when not in use and get huge scratches in it like any sort of helmet.
My equipment officer took my old Bullard of me just as it was looking a treat. Helmet was yellowed from getting hot and the reflective stickers had bubbles on them. Then he handed me my new glow in the dark white one. But the old girl still lives on hanging up on the wall next to my trashed motorbike helmet.
Ahhh the memories! :-D
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"Does any one have 2 sets of boots? I can Say structure all the way for boots? :-D"
You would structural boots to a hazmat job instead of pvc boots?!! :-o
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Structure helmets have a life of ten years from the date stamp on the inside of the helmet (fact)
where is that documented? (cos that's not the advice I've heard)
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The boots are identical looking but structure boots cost a bit more, most people only get structure boots as it covers everything and weight difference would be minimal....
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Structure helmets have a life of ten years from the date stamp on the inside of the helmet (fact)
where is that documented? (cos that's not the advice I've heard)
daresay it would be with any documentation recieved with the lid itself....
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Manufacturers recommendations- Australian Standards.
I've been in the CFS a while now and everyones helmet gets tossed when it comes up to ten years. Ring the guys at Brukunga and ask if your lost Darius...
:-D
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Manufacturers recommendations- Australian Standards.
I've been in the CFS a while now and everyones helmet gets tossed when it comes up to ten years. :-D
And this policy is where...?
I was told sometime ago, that helmets were meant to be batch tested - when they got to somewhere around 5 - 7 years old, one helmet from the batch was tested (the sacrificial helmet ) and if it was OK, then the rest of the batch stayed...if it failed, then the whole lot were (supposed) to be ditched.
Never seen it happen tho'
We visually check our helmets at the start of each fire season, and end up throwing out a helmet every so often...but perhaps not as often as they should be.
I suspect many more hemlets should be tested than what occurs now.....
Pip
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Yeah thats interesting Pip at work we throw them if they look suspect or before ten years same at my CFS station. Spoke to paid CFS staff and been told the same.
Imagine the cost and logistical nightmare of trying to do batch testing in the CFS given the size of the organisation and area covered.
In my opinion I don't think it is a huge issue, probably bigger fish to fry on this topic especially fire fighters wearing the correct helmet for the correct task! i.e rural helmets wore at structural incidents and rural helmets at RCR incidents without the correct visor that is not shatter proof.
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Likewise... At work they are ditched if suspect or involved in any form of "impact".. not neccesarrily heavy impact either... (Which is always hard as you sort of get attached to your lid)...
But I agree, nothing more annoying (in my view) when you see people wearing the wrong gear in general.. - Particulalry when it comes to protecting your noggin.. (eg Crew in Pbi wearing Rural helmets, or as FB mentioned, not wearing impact/shatter resistant visor rated helmets at MVA's)..
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obviously damaged ones are to be tossed, I am talking about fireblades quote: "Structure helmets have a life of ten years from the date stamp on the inside of the helmet (fact)".
If it really is a fact then it should be documented somewhere (like in a policy on PPE I would have thought) and it's not, and neither does the manufacturers recommend that either, as far as I know, hence my interest in why/where this "fact" came from. I suspect someone just thought it sounded like a good idea and hence a legend was born. Might be a good one for region to chase up!
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I always thought that date stamp was just when it was made nothing more.
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I looked at the Australian Standards for Fire fighting helmets ASNZ 4067: 2004 and could not find much on the life span of ten years.
As for the batch testing that is 9 helmets out of every manufactured batch which are then subjected to tests involving- Electrical insulation, Flame propagation, Convective heat exposure, Face shield tests, Impact energy attenuation, Penetration resistance, Retention system tests (chin strap) and Ear and Neck protection testing.
The only other thing stated from some manufacturers is that if the helmet is damaged in some way it should be returned for testing and if used in Compartment Fire Training it should be covered in an aluminiumised shield.
If the CFS is telling me ten years and my work is telling me the same that is good enough for me and that is where the so called "fact" came from as it is what I've been told to do from the Services I respond for. Maybe CFS got the ten years from a Manufacturers standard or a standard put in place by the CFS. I'm not really getting bent around the axles over it! :-D
I'm waiting for a rep to get back to me from a company I deal with, which supplies my work helmets. Maybe he will have the right amount of years a helmet can live for.
As for the date stamp 24P I got told ten years from that date mate.
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If the CFS is telling me ten years
so you mean someone in the CFS has told you 10 years. If it was official policy it would be documented somewhere. If it's not documented somewhere then it's not official and hence is just someone's opinion (I don't think it can be much clearer). So over to region to sort out.
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Darius, That what i got told by my place of employment and CFS paid guys.
I guess you have to believe what someone tells you some times.
Relax, breath deep we are only talking about helmets! :-P
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our group replace them every 10 years as policy or if they are not fit for purpose
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Thou shalt not wear a structure helmet at a rural incident.......thats right a Bushwacker will protect you............NOT :-o
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our brigade recently did an rcr refresher and have been told the pacific now make a helmet called a BR9 witch is a rural helmet with an impact rated visor so most of the people in our brigade that dont have ba are getting these helmets now.
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I dont wanna get into a heated debate so please let me say my piece without getting scorned at :-(
Mid last year my brigade responded to a small scrub fire on the Wandilo Road and one of our lieuys got told off by the Group Officer for wearing his Structual Fire Fighting PPE & helmet instead of his Rural Fire Fighting PPE and helmet
There is one way we could avoid the mix up of putting on the wrong gear and that is have 2 seperate Gear Bags 1 for structual and the other for Rural thus separating both PPE sets
But thats just my opinion :-)
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But what happens when you grab the rural gear, because you are going to a rural fire, and when you get there, you end up with a structure fire (which has happened to my brigade)...
Pip
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Thats a good question pip :| i cant really answer it as i havent got structual PPE only Rural PPE so i'll let someone else answer it for you :wink:
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BR9 are a very light weight helmet and have been passed for use for RCR brigade's and they are lots cheaper than what we are using....Look the who PPE/PPC gear is getting way out of hand and sooner or later something will happen because someone took the wrong gear to the job...Robert was that member wearing the new PBI stuff?? if not nothing wrong with wearing level 3 nomex to a job just remove the liner.........
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I dont wanna get into a heated debate so please let me say my piece without getting scorned at :-(
Mid last year my brigade responded to a small scrub fire on the Wandilo Road and one of our lieuys got told off by the Group Officer for wearing his Structual Fire Fighting PPE & helmet instead of his Rural Fire Fighting PPE and helmet
There is one way we could avoid the mix up of putting on the wrong gear and that is have 2 seperate Gear Bags 1 for structual and the other for Rural thus separating both PPE sets
But thats just my opinion :-)
As long as he didn't have PBI on rob, then I can't see the problem.
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what is the policy on PBI without the liner?
I thought that Lion would not accept responsibility for injury etc..?
May be wrong but i'm sure someone could correct me. after all it's designed to have the liner in, and removed when being washed....
Is this a common practice amounst some brigades to wear PBI minus the liner?????
RTW
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I think they meant the L3 nomex without the liner mate.
I don't believe it is common practice to remove the liner from PBI.. - Well, It shouldn't be.
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I think they meant the L3 nomex without the liner mate.
I don't believe it is common practice to remove the liner from PBI.. - Well, It shouldn't be.
Correct Rescue :wink:
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:-)
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Harking back to the question a page or so ago which I don't think was directly answered - why do we have different helmets for rural & structural ?
Two different AS standards
In very broad terms, Rural helmets have less impact resistance & are ventilated to help the wearer shed heat. Same as rural PPE.
Structural helmets are designed to insulate the wearer from a hot-gas environment, as well as protect from the higher likelihood of severely banging one's noggin.
Something like 20% of body heat is lost through the head even though it's only 9% of your body surface. Allowing for further reduced ability to shed heat through PPE, wearing a structure helmet at a rural fire has a significant impact on your ability to regulate body heat & consequential loss of stamina. But not as significant as wearing PBI Gold. Whether that physical loss is offset by the $$ saving & convenience of a single helmet is something our decision-makers can argue one day with workcover. Maybe.
regards
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I know which helmet I prefer to protect me. :evil:
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Yeah exactly, you may be able to shed a few more % of body heat with a rural helmet, but goodluck with anything falling on your head!
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I take it I can't interest you blokes in a Protector Safety AS1801 type 3 plastic fantastic then... :wink:
Must admit, I've been wearing a Cairns so long I can't imagine wearing anything lighter, even if it does stew my few remaining grey cells.
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Ive road tested a bushwacker and can prove that it wont protect your head....especially when a 34 runs over the top of it :-P :lol:
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Ive road tested a bushwacker and can prove that it wont protect your head....especially when a 34 runs over the top of it :-P :lol:
What. I know how to fix that Don't put your head under a 34 :roll:
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Maybe some of the members of this group should stick their helmets under a 34 with their head still in it..lol.
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Just quickly, still relatively new, but if you go for a bush fire wether first response or strike team, your meant to wear PBI right? so what happens if that bush fire causes a house to go up, as does happen, would you just do your thing staying out of the house or maybe call in an appliance with people wearing level 3 or gold? also how do you tell if your pants and boots are level 1, 2, or 3? recently i read something about having liners in pants??? and what is the difference between rural and structural boots? sorry for my ignorance/
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Maybe some of the members of this group should stick their helmets under a 34 with their head still in it..lol.
I know who will be first :-P
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Just quickly, still relatively new, but if you go for a bush fire wether first response or strike team, your meant to wear PBI right? so what happens if that bush fire causes a house to go up, as does happen, would you just do your thing staying out of the house or maybe call in an appliance with people wearing level 3 or gold? also how do you tell if your pants and boots are level 1, 2, or 3? recently i read something about having liners in pants??? and what is the difference between rural and structural boots? sorry for my ignorance/
If you do a brief search across the board you should be able to find all the relative info...
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Only problem with Cairns 660 is they are no longer made in the 'Gold' Yellow. MSA Australia only make them in that poxy Lime Green Yellow colour.
Apparently they are still made in the Gold in the US but they are not certified to the Australian Standards - even though they are the same helmet.
The Pacific is probably the other reasonable structure helmet to go for but our brigade has always had Cairns, so we would like to stick with them. If anyone has any new Yellow Cairns 660 helmets in their brigade that they would be willing to part with please let me know.
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Scott Aspens Structure helmets are still available in Gold yellow Matt :wink:
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I use a pacific....Fits nice and comfy on my head.
Just need a break every hour or your neck starts to get sore and you get a headache.
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MattB - The Pacific Structural in the Gold Yellow would definately be the closest to the Cairns660. Another option is if you get new White Cairns, just change the Harness out.. - Or try and purchase new Harnesses seperately.. (Not an option when the helmet is being replaced due to damage obviously)..
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Yes I think a new harness might be the way to go for at least one of our helmets, we looked at the pacific and they look ok, only thing is we have lots of spare visors and bits n pieces for the Cairns so we would really like to stay with those if possible. It's bad enough having BR9's and Cairns helmets, to bring in a Pacific means another lot of spare parts we have to store as well.
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Understandable.. - Only suggested the Pacific Structural as a replacement if you could no longer source yellow cairns from anywhere. - I agree keeping with the cairns as long as possible sounds the best way to go.
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There really is no 'wrong' helmet. For some reason the service has decided to issue cut price bullshit 'rural' helmets. Its simple really, you get on the truck with the maximum level of PPE that you may be required to wear. You get turned out on your 34P to Grass Alight, then take your PBI set, L1 tunic and structural helmet. Why I hear you ask? Well, simple really, what happens if you're coming home from your Grass Alight and get turned out to something along the lines of House Alight - Persons Reported... What are you going to do without your structural gear?
Either that, or the CFS need to issue bags to store your second set of in and have it on the truck still, but in all honesty the PBI pants aren't that much worse in terms of heat etc etc...