SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Alan J on August 06, 2007, 01:14:09 PM
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Are there any members of First Responder brigades on-list ?
As in brigades that are turned out by SAAS to medical emergencies
automatically, as well as traditional fire brigades stuff.
Some in my brigade are tossing up whether to try & become one as,
although we are near-metro, we are around 15-20 mins from the
nearest 3 SAAS stations or hospitals. One of the things which has
been highlighted to our members doing 1st-aid & O2 reaccred is the
short window of survival afforded heart patients & etc. We think we
can offer some value in those few extra minutes between when we
can get there, & when SAAS can get there.
Not after a philsophical discussion of whether or not it's a good idea.
That's for my brigade to decide.
I'm looking for first-hand feed-back from those actually doing it.
What are the plusses.
What are the pitfalls.
How much extra load in your area & why.
Does it really work ? Why?/Why not?
Need real data to see if it is something for us. Or something to avoid.
cheers
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there are plenty of CFS brigades out in the remote rural area who do first response..im familiar with Salt Creek (Region 3) being in excess of 40 minutes from a SAAS station. very crucial for them to be SAAS first responders. i believe they get around 25~ SAAS calls per year on average.
my own brigade has members trained through the ambulance-assist program to assist ambo's, like being familiar with the set up of ambulances and where everything is kept. Lets the ambo's do what they do best instead of running around getting stuff. :)
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I think that you will find that there are plans down the track to train CFS members with the skills to help SAAS or to be first responders,I know sometime ago my brigade was asked as we work very closely with SAAS and some 20 members put up their hand to do the course when it gets up and going. We get about 2/3 calls a year to help SAAS and I have been involved in two full on heart attacks where members took over from the SAAS crews who had been working on a guy for sometime... Salt creek brigade have a great set up they have at their pick up point a full truma kit and other items,they dont carry auto defibs but have full oxygen kit...
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I think compulsory(sp) CPR and EAR training should be conducted for CFS members across the board as part of L1. - along with hemorage control and maintain airway etc..
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Most members of brigades have Senior First Aid as a requirement,and I have always been an advocate that all appliances should be equipped with OxyViva's,after all it only has to save someone once and its paid for itself especially if its a firefighter.
This has been met with some resistance from Region who basically wont allow it on the appliance as its not standard stowage, and want documented cases of when it could have been used.Hello can of worms there,however some brigades have it and some dont.
So what does everyone think should we push to have it as a standard across CFS?
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I'm with you SA Firey, Oxyviva'"s should be on all cfs trucks, not just for the resus side of things but also for O2 therapy in respect to smoke inhalation.
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Yep totally in favour of the 'oxyviva' kits. Also believe at least RCR brigades, esp those more remote, should carry 'defib kits' alot of work places carry them and they are so easy to use, I was introduced to them at the last first aid course I did. Speaking of that I also believe everyone should be senior first aid trained.
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all the sturt group appliances have O2 sets on board for the firefighters safety/use at incidents if required... it can and has also been used on casualties at car accidents and fires by trained operators in the group (every brigade has around 10-15 operators. i believe this is a very good piece of kit to have available, especially at rural incidents, and if it was standard stowage would be very nice...
wouldnt be cheap to setup though with a kit for every appliance state wide, plus training, upkeep of training and swapping cylinders...?
re; first responders - there are a couple, not many, brigades that do this to assist SAAS, they get a few calls a year, but are trained well and do a fantastic job. i dont know how you would go trying to push into this kind of program, but its always worth a go i spose if you think it will benefit the local community.
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G'day Mack
The thinking about this stems directly from the State Training fella's comments during reaccred sessions. Just moving from the gaseous "Yeah that's a good idea" discussions afterwards to something a little more... rubbery. As DGO2 pointed out last night, since the area is 'serviced' by full-time SAAS, they may reject it out-of-hand. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
But we do need to know the experiences of those already in the program before deciding whether to push ahead with it.
cheers
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good to get the research happening, but personally i wouldnt expect to find members from those brigades on the forum.. :|
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So, just an observation.. - SAFIREY's brigade cannot get them due to Regional issues, however every appliance in Sturt group carries them..
:? .. Im at a total loss on that one! .. - I'd be using that as an argument SAFIREY when trying to get OxyViva! "Sounds" like region are just approaching it as a 'Nope, its too hard, too much paperwork, not happening' attitude... - Which totally SUCKS when it comes down to firefighter safety!!
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sturt group did pay for them out of group money.. im sure region would let mawson group do the same thing if that is what they wanted to do and deemed it a reasonable way to spend group funds...?
its been used numerous times anyway, and does make a differance.
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sturt group did pay for them out of group money.. im sure region would let mawson group do the same thing if that is what they wanted to do and deemed it a reasonable way to spend group funds...?
Unfortunately not, I have been pushing this for a while now and even though another non RCR brigade in our group has 02 therapy as well as every brigade in our neighbouring group we have still been denied permission to purchase and train in the use of this gear.
Our brigade was prepared to pay for the equipment from our own brigade funds but we were still told it would set a precedent amongst other brigades in the Region and we would not be allowed to carry it.
I put together a bit of info on 02 Therapy, it may not be as comprehensive as it could be but it gives you a bit of an idea on what we are talking about.
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It is interesting that we try to go down the path through the appropriate channels and get constantly blocked in our efforts Matt.
This is a piece of equipment I have been campaigning for to get on the appliance for years,and as you have shown the need is there,and I recall a incident we were at and you got MFS to come back to the job for a collapsed patient in the carpark at Woodcroft. :evil:
Contact me via landline to discuss further Matt :wink:
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You know what, as much as I am a campaigner(sp) for doing things the right way, if you have exhausted all other options, and Region are CLEARLY denying you a piece of potentially LIFE SAVING equipment, just buy the gear and put it on the trucks.
Im sure when it saves someones life one day they aren't going to mind you went against the regions decision to not allow you to carry it.
Contact your OHS reps (at a state and non-service related level).. I believe you gave a good case/argument in regards to YOUR crews safety, and the safety of the people we are serving.. - Our communities.. - Region are simply putting you guys at a greater risk by denying you the 'clearance' to carry the gear.. - Particulalry if you are going to pay for it with brigade funds! .. Will be interesting if something happens and it goes to a Coroners court where it is found the initial use of Oxygen therapy may have reduced the potential mortality rate.
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We wanted to get oxyviva gear sometime ago for our rescue but where not allowed as the region that was handing them out was asked to stop from higher up the ladder.I can see a good use for all brigade's to have this equipment not only for members but for when SAAS are busy elsewhere or you have got there well before SAAS..As for auto defib,is there not one in a sturt group appliances????
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As for auto defib,is there not one in a sturt group appliances????
there was rumor of one, but i dont think anything eventuated.
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In most cases i think that brigades who have ambulance stations close by should still be issued with first responders equipment cause there are times when that particular station is unable to get an ambulance crew together for a medical emergency and a Paramedic crew from a full time career station has to be paged
But say if a brigade had medical first response equipment they could be default paged to the medical emergency in the event that a volunteer SAAS crew is unable to be responded
There are a few brigades in my group that could do with first responders equipment but im not gonna say who they are :wink:
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My area is surrounded by ambos stations, all crewed by paid staff. BUT it is still 18 minutes minimum for an ambulance to the area (having stood at scenes and waited & waited & waited - jeepers the wait seems forever when you have seriously injured people there).
I can't see the time improving, due to the physical distance the ambulances have to cover to get to us, over some very winding roads.
Anyway, having a CFS brigade equipped with a more advanced set of First Aid gear (and not just oxygen) could be quite a benefit. In my own brigade, we now have an Intensive Care paramedic, A Registered Nurse, and a Doctor as members, so we'll just take our own medical team with us, and wait for the ambulance to attend !!!!! :evil:
Anyway, I digress...
I would like to see most brigades issued with a far more advanced first aid gear AND some more training to go with it... for those times when it takes much longer for the ambulance to attend than the CFS, or when the ambos resources are overwhelmed at any scene, by the casualties at an incident......
Pip
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20 mins... - Were they responded at the same time as fire service? .. hehe :-P
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Yep...the timings have usually come about because I get the call from a local direct to me and have got CFS & Ambos dispatched, or I have come across the job, and placed the call to ambos myself.
And the brigade can be out in 6 minutes or less....I reckon we have beaten ambos to the call everytime we have been dispatched at the same time....
Pip
PS This should not be seen as a criticism of the Ambos...just a fact that they are a long way from my area, which generally has a very low rate of usage of ambulance services....
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The last couple of vehicle accidents close to Kalangadoo our closest SAAS Station which is Nangwarry has been unsble to get their ambulance out the door resulting in Mount Gambier ICU Paramedics being paged so maybe Kalangadoo and Nangwarry brigades could be issued with first responders equipment and training :-)
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No such thing as an ICU Paramedic.
You may mean ICP's - Intensive Care Paramedics. - However the whole shift would not all be ICP's, possibly one or two, one probably being the CTL (Clinical Team Leader) for that station. - The rest probably being Paramedics.
Im guessing NG are AO's.
Hopefully most of your Brigade members are Senior First Aiders Rob, thus being able to conduct basic medical aid and triage until an Ambulance arrives.
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All of our brigade members are Senior 1st Aid trained but still having the first responders equipment would help :-)
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So would a hovercraft with a 10,000L water tank..! If every remote brigade was to be given first responder medical equipment, the state would have No money to fund the basics such as PPE and equipment servicing..
I agree that a feasibility study could be conducted in regards to response times to some remote areas, and those in the "most need" be considered for such a program. However I don't think a "blanket handout" to all brigades outside the Metro area is sensible.
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Not asking for a blanket handout and as has been stated there are brigades who are willing to pay for the equipment, and also to get members trained in Advanced Resus yet we are continually stymied on the issue by Region,or would that set a precedent for CFS to have First Responder Brigades :evil:
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Our group was offered oxyviva for the two RCR trucks, at the moment mount compass has it but were told that they can't use it?? Go figure
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i think that all cfs/mfs/ses should be trained in trauma some what as saas cant all ways get there as quick because of distances to an incident and there is nothing worse than having to wait when we all could be doing something to help saas so when they arrive they can take over and do what they do best
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Not asking for a blanket handout and as has been stated there are brigades who are willing to pay for the equipment, and also to get members trained in Advanced Resus yet we are continually stymied on the issue by Region,or would that set a precedent for CFS to have First Responder Brigades :evil:
Yes I understand that, and specifically agree that those that are willing to pay for the equipement and training, should not be restricted by region/state at any level.
However believe when it comes to the state paying for the gear, I believe it needs to be worked out who should qualify for it.
Byt ofcourse, if the brigade are willing to purchase the gear and train in it to better their abilities at the scene, then I can't see any "reasonable" objection that Region / State could have.
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Due to the adhoc nature of OxyViva's in some brigades and their use,and being denied authority to use it, maybe we should start a petition through the VFBA for that as well. :x
Im sure we would get plenty of support on this in the interest of firefighter safety on the fireground,let alone the benefit to members of the public we save using it.
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what was the reason region/state provided for rejecting your application? If no good reason, and you have tried first to do things "the right way", then if it were me I'd just buy them anyway and be done with it.
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Problem is you just can't go and buy the gear,CFS has a policy in buy gear and we must follow that policy...Having said that I would like to know what would be done if a supplier donated the gear in return for say some local publicity???
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Oxyvivas are old old old tech, go for something newer, perhaps a multipurpose EMT pack, which includes your O2 for therapy and includes a full trauma kit etc etc.
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I think you would be referring to a Thomas Pack. - Oxyviva kits aren't neccessarily old technology or the old box tins, they now come in all forms / shapes & sizes. - I believe when people are rereffing to Oxyviva's they are referring to Oxygen Therapy equipment in general.. Lay terms ;)
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Got it in one Rescue :-D
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what was the reason region/state provided for rejecting your application? If no good reason, and you have tried first to do things "the right way", then if it were me I'd just buy them anyway and be done with it.
so who would then pay for the initial training and upkeep of skills? would add up a bit with thirty or so memebrs in the brigade?
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i think that all cfs/mfs/ses should be trained in trauma some what as saas cant all ways get there as quick because of distances to an incident and there is nothing worse than having to wait when we all could be doing something to help saas so when they arrive they can take over and do what they do best
senior first aid covers trauma to a degree.... we have 'basic' first aid kits... im sure we can get to work in some way or other until SAAS arrives...
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so who would then pay for the initial training and upkeep of skills? would add up a bit with thirty or so memebrs in the brigade?
same way it happens in your group I guess. But didn't you read the doc MattB posted, it looked like a well thought out proposal to me. Anyway I'm not in Mawson so it's not my business but if they want to push it I'm sure they are capable of doing so themselves.
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so who would then pay for the initial training and upkeep of skills? would add up a bit with thirty or so memebrs in the brigade?
Sturt Group considers it money well spent to have a sizeable core of members in all brigades kept up to speed with O2 as well as 1st aid. State Training do it at an acceptable price.
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so who would then pay for the initial training and upkeep of skills? would add up a bit with thirty or so memebrs in the brigade?
Sturt Group considers it money well spent to have a sizeable core of members in all brigades kept up to speed with O2 as well as 1st aid. State Training do it at an acceptable price.
yeah, i know, and agree with sturt group. just stating that that is something a brigade that may decide to 'go rogue' would have to consider.... it wouldnt be terribly cheap considering the course is only a 1 year accreditation...
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Having tried going down the right course and channels to try and get this equipment the response from Region is poor to say the least.
Even offering to buy the equipment and pay for training wouldnt sway our fearless leader :evil:
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If you look at MFB's first responder program will fill you in on a lot, some CFA brigades are now first responders aswell. First step for SA emergency services is to make SAMFS first responders to assist in SAAS workload and improving first response times.
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
The SAMFS are considering a proposal to become first responder under the new EB negotiations.
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hang on there are large swaths of area where CFS can frequently beat SAAS eg northern end of east Torrens
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
Doesn't that automatically count in most CFS brigades? There are many towns in SA that have a CFS brigade, and don't have a SAAS station (And you don't have to go very far out to find volunteer ambulance stations either).
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
Have you read the previous posts in relation to this topic, in regard to the time taken for SAAS to get to many areas? Perhaps you have already read the topic, and chosen to deliberately cast a hook, in the hope of stirring the pot..... :|
The type of postings here, and on some of the other threads in a similar vein are neither entertaining or constructive.
Perhaps a few people need to grow up and put forward some sensible discussions points, rather than behaving like school kids in the playground
Pip
(who does put a name to the posting, rather than hide behind a nickname)
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I would love to see all (or at least just the odd 1) MFS personnel spend time out in RURAL south australia....not Adelaide Hills and outer surrounds....places like Karoonda, Salt Creek, Mambray Creek, Iron Knob....all these places...would be A VERY GOOD EYE OPENER....the volunteers there have a REAL passion to do the job....
now, BACK on topic.
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
The SAMFS are considering a proposal to become first responder under the new EB negotiations.
That is interesting as when SAAS approached MFS previously to do that they said how much extra $ do we get.Apparently SAMFS and the UFU rejected it. :?
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I would love to see all (or at least just the odd 1) MFS personnel spend time out in RURAL south australia....not Adelaide Hills and outer surrounds....places like Karoonda, Salt Creek, Mambray Creek, Iron Knob....all these places...would be A VERY GOOD EYE OPENER....the volunteers there have a REAL passion to do the job....
now, BACK on topic.
Dezza, I don't question your passion. In rural areas the CFS is an Asset, I don't pitty those guys who travel +3hrs either way for a hazmat job on the west coast. The politics is centred around the outer suburbs, MFS and CFS usually work well together at ground level when the jobs on. however aguments begin mostly from people attempting to make it their living.
nothing else to do but pick faults.
In rural areas I fully support the idea of first responders. I would strongly recomend that people visit and join their local SAAS team.
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
lmfao - what an uneducated comment... you obviously dont have a clue about anything outside of metro adelaide do you?
re; MFS doing first response to medical emergencies. i wouldnt have thought they had the spare resources? or is it going to get to the point of running a couple of jobs at a time and having to tell SAAS, "sorry about our agreement but we want to keep those trucks available.."
well actually i guess they'd just call CFS to fill in the gaps in stations as usual... you know only the small stations... like adelaide.
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NRA - this may be of interest to you in realising where the SAAS country stations are located and the distance between ambulances in some cases.
http://www.saambulance.com.au/publicweb/pdf/SAAS%20Country%20Stations.pdf (http://www.saambulance.com.au/publicweb/pdf/SAAS%20Country%20Stations.pdf)
unfortunately there is no similar map for CFS stations located on the internet that i could find, but a lot of those gaps between SAAS stations are full of CFS stations.
also it may shock you to realise that a lot of CFS brigades do actually have a good response time, i could name quite a few that are almost always out the doors in 5 minutes or less, admittedly there are also a lot that i wouldnt trust to get a truck out the doors at all.
by the way, my brigade is located only about 15km from the CBD in the burbs and we quite regularly beat SAAS to vehicle accidents by up to 10 minutes.. little bit of patient care in the meantime doesnt hurt.
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First responders need to be onsite quicker than the nearest available SAAS unit, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This automatically counts out the CFS, on time alone.
lmfao - what an uneducated comment... you obviously dont have a clue about anything outside of metro adelaide do you?
re; MFS doing first response to medical emergencies. i wouldnt have thought they had the spare resources? or is it going to get to the point of running a couple of jobs at a time and having to tell SAAS, "sorry about our agreement but we want to keep those trucks available.."
well actually i guess they'd just call CFS to fill in the gaps in stations as usual... you know only the small stations... like adelaide.
Yeah they have to keep an appliance K3 for the next Deltec Alarm run :roll:
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unfortunately there is no similar map for CFS stations located on the internet that i could find, but a lot of those gaps between SAAS stations are full of CFS stations.
http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au
click on social environment then emergency services then select the cfs stations overlay.
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unfortunately there is no similar map for CFS stations located on the internet that i could find, but a lot of those gaps between SAAS stations are full of CFS stations.
http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au
click on social environment then emergency services then select the cfs stations overlay.
cheers HF14
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I would love to see all (or at least just the odd 1) MFS personnel spend time out in RURAL south Australia....not Adelaide Hills and outer surrounds....places like Karoonda, Salt Creek, Mambray Creek, Iron Knob....all these places...would be A VERY GOOD EYE OPENER....the volunteers there have a REAL passion to do the job....
now, BACK on topic.
some of those rural brigades that you mention do do with an upgrading of the their ability to do first aid. This is not being picky in any way but the cost of kitting out a brigade with the correct equipment will carry a huge price tag. In Dezza quote yes these place do have a real passion for what they do and should be rewarded for it. The best way that I can see we can go forward is through having kits based on different levels of responses i.e. a level 1 kit for senior first aid through to a a X kit that can contain trauma O2 therapy and defib. From experience ambo's don't go off the beaten track to much particularly in areas like Iron Knob, Hawker, Wirrulla as their vehicle are designed for it.
Matt