SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: samfs on August 10, 2007, 09:57:50 PM
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what do you think about this subject
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The Poll allows you to select both YES and NO at the same time.. - Might want to fix that.
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Only if the SES can no longer mann their rescue appliances and may be if some of their members come over into the other service(CFS),there are country towns that can no longer support all services and members want to come over with the gear.
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Blanket polls like this that ask such a general question just seem to stir the pot. When you ask a question like this, you really have to think first. In some areas it is simply not feasible for the CFS/MFS to "take over" rcr from SES.
There is a particular CFS rcr brigade at the moment who cannot get a truck out the door for most calls and now has an understanding with an SES rcr unit to back them up.
Hell, I think I would take Laura SES over the CFS in that area for rcr any day since they are the world champion rapid extrication team.
It isn't simply black and white, as with most of the issues concerning CFS/MFS/SES. Both CFS and SES have issues that need to be addressed from the top of the heirarchy down. Until these issues are addressed, the pot will always be stirred.
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All services use the bible namely the Road Crash Resource Directory,however it is not practical for any service to take over a gazetted area unless all parties to the RCRD agree to it.
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Blanket polls like this that ask such a general question just seem to stir the pot. When you ask a question like this, you really have to think first. In some areas it is simply not feasible for the CFS/MFS to "take over" rcr from SES.
There is a particular CFS rcr brigade at the moment who cannot get a truck out the door for most calls and now has an understanding with an SES rcr unit to back them up.
filtered, I think I would take Laura SES over the CFS in that area for rcr any day since they are the world champion rapid extrication team.
It isn't simply black and white, as with most of the issues concerning CFS/MFS/SES. Both CFS and SES have issues that need to be addressed from the top of the heirarchy down. Until these issues are addressed, the pot will always be stirred.
this was not to stir the pot it was just a general question that we could all talk about to see what people think if it was to change to all mfs/cfs stations doing rcr :-)
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what do you think about this subject
*** my opinion only ***
This has been discussed before in other topics. Enough emotion is happening regards Seaford CFS vs MFS as an example, without adding to it.
This really does not assist inter-service relations & being able to work together to assist the community.
If the local community wish the removal of a specific service, then I am sure they will force a merger or a change. Sometimes this is happening, but not extensively (eg Seaford CFS vs MFS).
Each service have specialised skills & training that enable the task to be completed.
When the paid staff finally merge into SAFECOM and thus remove the current duplicate functions in the services, this will reduce budgets significantly.
Hopefully this will give us better equipment on the frontline.
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Hi there
This is a political touchy subject SES/CFS etc.
I beleive there is a place for both services - but in smaller communities its a huge drain on volunteer numbers, and has the potiential of generating power plays between services.
My views
Wayne
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Yes, definitely! But not so much as an MFS/CFS takeover, but rather a merger of all the services...
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I Agree, SES should be Super Excelent Sandwich makers.....
I question the need for them at all!! Well not quiet some units are very good but RCR should remain with one agency, Or next we will have the NSW Version.. Ambulance rescue, police rescue, volunterr rescue, NSWFB, SES, just depends on where you are....
Least if you keep it with one style of ageny. such as fire, we all know who to call.
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I Agree, SES should be Super Excelent Sandwich makers.....
I question the need for them at all!! Well not quiet some units are very good but RCR should remain with one agency, Or next we will have the NSW Version.. Ambulance rescue, police rescue, volunterr rescue, NSWFB, SES, just depends on where you are....
Least if you keep it with one style of ageny. such as fire, we all know who to call.
In an Emergency Dial 000 :-D
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I Agree, SES should be Super Excelent Sandwich makers.....
I question the need for them at all!! Well not quiet some units are very good but RCR should remain with one agency, Or next we will have the NSW Version.. Ambulance rescue, police rescue, volunterr rescue, NSWFB, SES, just depends on where you are....
Least if you keep it with one style of ageny. such as fire, we all know who to call.
i am going to have to say i agree with you 100% :-)
In an Emergency Dial 000 :-D
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Bugger i was thinking SUBWAY make the best sandies....
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I always thought my sanga's were not that good, maybe i should try putting the oranges on first.... salad + peanut butter... mmmmm
Anyway. All it takes is for a bit of interservice training to make everything work smoothly. National training packages mean we are all working to the same standard (one would hope). Just need to standardise the gear!
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Least if you keep it with one style of ageny. such as fire, we all know who to call.
Considering that dispatch for MFS, CFS and SES all come from the same place, your argument is null and void...
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Considering that dispatch for MFS, CFS and SES all come from the same place, your argument is null and void...
[/quote] yes that is right but are you aware that if you ring 000 and ask for ses they say sorry you have to ring a 1300 number and then Adelaide fire will take the call from that point? so to get one ses truck out on scene you have to ring two numbers figures
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132500 is the SES emergency number...certainly one that not many people would remember if they dont have the fridge magnet hahaha
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132500 is the SES emergency number...certainly one that not many people would remember if they dont have the fridge magnet hahaha
132500 is mainly for non-life threat incidents so that people do not overload the 000 number for tree down & roof damage during storm events. Many insurance companies give the 132500 number to residents.
<author Dezza>
yes that is right but are you aware that if you ring 000 and ask for ses they say sorry you have to ring a 1300 number and then Adelaide fire will take the call from that point? so to get one ses truck out on scene you have to ring two numbers figures
In early 2006, the SES CRD moved to MFS Comcen. Since then the same people are answering the 000 call & 132500 call.
The 1300 300177 was disbanded (I think) in 2005.
Given the amount of time passed, I would be surprised if the 1300 still worked. I would also be extremely angry if you were told to call a different number recently.
How long ago did this happen :?
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Considering that dispatch for MFS, CFS and SES all come from the same place, your argument is null and void...
yes that is right but are you aware that if you ring 000 and ask for ses they say sorry you have to ring a 1300 number and then Adelaide fire will take the call from that point? so to get one ses truck out on scene you have to ring two numbers figures
samfs - ring 000 give them your emergency.... how hard is it?
arent we talking about rescue? if so... why would you (as a member of the public reporting a VA) call every individual service...? Adelaide Fire now respond all three (CFS/MFS/SES) services at the click of a button... so as filtered said, your argument is null and void.
do you actually have a sensible reason for your proposal?
ps; when you rang 000 and asked for SES, judging by the number you were told to ring, this would have been back when SES were being dispatched by CFS SOCC, therefore a differant number to get in touch with the correct comcen.
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132500 is the SES emergency number...certainly one that not many people would remember if they dont have the fridge magnet hahaha
ill bet you can remember pizza hut though... cant be too much more difficult.
:-D
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Isnt the real question "How will rescue be resourced under SAFECOM"
Get on the journey boys and girls, there aren't going to multiple services for long...
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the 132500 number is for storm damage only and is answerd by adelaide fire how ever when the ses scc is open it is answerd by ses if there is a road crash ring 000 ask for ambulance then all emergency services will be requested as adelaide fire dose not respond saas its not brain surgry
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Isnt the real question "How will rescue be resourced under SAFECOM"
Get on the journey boys and girls, there aren't going to multiple services for long...
For paid staff, most probably if the PSU & UFU sort out differences with SAFECOM management. I doubt if the operational arms of the organisations will change until the paid staff are combined.
Thus CFS, SES & MFS volunteers will be around for a few more years.
Maybe an election would have happened by then & with a change of government, this might not change operationally..
** personal opinion only **
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Interesting when some in the fire services talk about taking over rescue, they talk about RCR. And yet when we "use" the fire services in the past, its storm damage or landsearch - not exactly rescue is it!
I once had the opportunity/ pleasure to run some CFS guys through a landsearch session at a CFS training day (Lameroo) fantastic day and they did really well (found most of the chockies :-D.
For areas that have low numbers merging the brigade/ units, is a better option. They can then get the best of both worlds, Fully equipped SES trucks, access to SES specialist in usar,vertical,RCR,Storm damage, Disaster management,Landsearch etc. And still have access to all of the CFS specialist as well. All they would need is 4-6 people for the rescue team.
I think this is the way of the future, not shutting down one of the services. And here is a bit of info for you NSW SES is the largest provider of RCR in the state. VICSES is the same, the SES QLD still provides rescue including RCR, SES in Tasmania same & finally even in WA + NTSES still provide Rescue services.
Those who promote the one Super service need to remember all of that training you guys do & then add all of our training on top - then keep the training current. It is hard enough for us to keep current, hold down a job, remember the kids + keep sweet with the partner as well. :-D.
cheers
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And here is a bit of info for you, the NSWSES attended 849 RCR related callouts in 2005/2006. This number was eclipsed by both the VRA *and* the Fire Brigade.
I would imagine you would see that same trend in all other states. Check your facts champ :)
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Number not based on incidents - but units certified by the state rescue board & same as Victoria. I would not be surprised considering NSWFB covers Sydney, Newcastle & Wollongong (& has retained all over the place), and like all fire services counts RCR's they attend whether they are doing the extracation or providing fire cover. Interesting that you mention the VRA & NSWFB in the same sentence, considering NSWFB were trying to take Rescue off VRA in Penrith (an area of Sydney I know very well), I actually agreed with the reasons for it just the method was very poor.
And you might be surprised to know that in rural areas the VRA & SES work closely together (same membership support each other on ops etc)in some districts, they have an MOU so the infighting would stop and resources would not be duplicated.
So yep anyone can come up with stats to support their argument & if CFS/MFS could guarantee 24/7 cover & meet the standards of emergency response for Road Crash Rescue (in people, equipment-no combitools, training), meet the standard for fire coverage (& no not using the rescue crew), keep up with all of the training you guys do & finally it improves service to the community - then why not get rid of the SES all together. However before everyone cheers this years fire season is looking to be really bad.
So while you guys are out doing what you were formed to do - fight fires, who is going to look after rescue? And be honest can every brigade/ Station in the State get a full crew? I already know the answer, we have similar issues. However to meet the Standard I only need 4, think about that.
And just to clear something up I'm not blinded by the Orange, when I first took over the unit I'm currently in ( I was bought in from a near by unit) I considered handing RCR over to the local fire service & wind the unit up. After doing the SWOT analysis, it was not as simple as first thought (interservice rivalry between the fire services would have meant that the other SES units picking up a lot more work which they didn't need) & there was no guarantee that the situation would improve.
A far simpler solution was to change the membership of the unit(which was painfulfor those involved), luckily we also attracted another very experienced operator & some new people who will do ok. As I said above if handing rescue over to someone else would provide a better service I would have-less grey hairs :wink:.
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts
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Just for info the CFS also only requires 4 to roll an appliance. - Just for info :)
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Thanks mate - I was aware of that (also read the fire ground practices on the subject)interestingly the Victorians run with two. I've asked our gurus about whether we should try that.Opinion was not a good idea - relies too much on other agencies who may not be at full strength. I think going forward some radical thinking from all three services in consultation with SAAS will need to happen to fix the issues with road crash rescue around crewing issues, when to call rescue/ fire cover (the time delay between SAAS and everyone else being call is sometimes ridiculous). Cheers
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The Victorian MFB run with 2 guys in their rescue appliances as all MFB firefighters are trained in RCR,CFA run with crew of 3/4 as well as volunteer back up...Not too sure about SES but from what i have seen at call outs they have crews of 4...
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The minimum standard is -
Crewing
It is a requirement that an RR response consist of a minimum of two RR-qualified persons per vehicle per turnout, adequate EVS drivers and sufficient personnel
for back up in the event of escalation of an event.
This is straight out of their arrangments manual, however as I said above it would be tight for non full time units.
cheers
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all i have to say is-----
can anyone remember why the fire service took over rcr from sapol???
if i remember correctly it was cos sapol could not provide fire cover at rcr and it was safer for fire service to do it!!
if this is correct i have one question why is ses doing it
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SAPOL only did RCR in Adelaide and surrounding areas. At the time there were not many CFS brigades with RCR gear. As there became more CFS brigades equipped with the gear as well as MFS I guess there was less requirement for SAPOL to do it. Some of the country SES units have been doing RCR for years, probably as they were the service in those particular towns to have the gear.
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all i have to say is-----
can anyone remember why the fire service took over rcr from sapol???
if i remember correctly it was cos sapol could not provide fire cover at rcr and it was safer for fire service to do it!!
if this is correct i have one question why is ses doing it
Other agencies all over the country do RCR.. Such as Ambulance services, SES, RAR groups, Police etc..
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Other agencies all over the country do RCR.. Such as Ambulance services, SES, RAR groups, Police etc..
I think that you'll find that will start to change in the coming years. In some areas there is a huge duplication of resources and its being sorted out. It's not terribly smart, financially or otherwise, to have multiple agencies all doing RCR.
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Fire service in Tassie now do all metro RCR and in the country ses and I think there is only one country TFS that do RCR.Ambo's gave it up early this year,if you look in NSW they have more agency's do RCR than I have hot dinners in a week....
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Fire service in Tassie now do all metro RCR and in the country ses and I think there is only one country TFS that do RCR.Ambo's gave it up early this year,if you look in NSW they have more agency's do RCR than I have hot dinners in a week....
Most states only have a couple of agencies doing the majority of Rescue work. WA and NSW certainly have the most diverse range of agencies performing Rescue work - In WA they all come under FESA, whereas they are separate agencies over in NSW.
Its interesting that in Victoria and NSW there are a couple of independent RCR service providers, namely the VRA and the S&R Squads.
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9119 - Quite simple we are rescue! If you ever read the act its in the list of things we do.
We do national competency training every three years, we have arguably the best RCR gear in the country (in our part of the state anyway)- ask the SAMFS, CFS guys who have seen it up close.
And we don't have to worry about fire fighting, BA, Hazmat etc.
In other words we are specialist in the field, Victoria rural is mostly SES RCR, NSW is moving the same way - VRA & SES are constantly working together to achieve this & other states are mainly SES RCR teams despite what ever the umbrella organisation is called. And the world champion rapid intervention team is an SES unit.
Finally I'm surprised this subject is still alive since you firies are so busy with KI & other fires, a recent exercise involving Hazmat & RCR proved to me that one service can't do everything.
So until someone can prove to me an all in one service can do better than we do,
please leave things alone! At least our tassy friends have seen the light :-D
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Sorry for repeating myself just I get a bit passionate when the ill informed bang this drum.
Here is some food for thought from recent exchanges between various CFS members and myself regarding RCR.
"Didn't realise you guys carried that much equipment - we couldn't fit all of that on a rescue pumper"
"So you guys are trained under the National competency - answer yes"
"Nice gear we didn't have that when I was in a rescue brigade"
"I don't know how you guys can do it - I couldn't"
"that was a slick rescue by SES well done" SAAS crew at a debrief after an exercise.
Senior CFS member to a BFF1 group " these trucks are set are pretty much the same, this is where you will find the RCR gear (hydraulics)"
As you can see there is a lot of misinformation & lack of knowledge out there.
That is why every opportunity I get to educate other services in what we do & the equipment we have I seize it with both hands.
Despite some issues within our service which are being slowly addressed we are proud of what we do & think on the whole do a pretty good job.
So for those who want to push SES out of rescue(including RCR), do yourself a favour & visit your local unit, have a talk to them & work out ways to work together instead. And if you want to visit our unit just give us a call - we will even let you have a play :-D Just think you might want to actually join us!
Thats all from me cheers
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In other words we are specialist in the field, Victoria rural is mostly SES RCR, NSW is moving the same way - VRA & SES are constantly working together to achieve this & other states are mainly SES RCR teams despite what ever the umbrella organisation is called. And the world champion rapid intervention team is an SES unit.
Finally I'm surprised this subject is still alive since you firies are so busy with KI & other fires, a recent exercise involving Hazmat & RCR proved to me that one service can't do everything.
Some states may have a high proportion of SES units, but often you'll find that the fire services turnout to rescues far more often.
If you want to go on past results, then yes Laura SES did place 1st in Rapid Intervention in 2006, but NSWFB Burwood placed 1st Overall in 2002. :wink:
Heres a question, how do you deal with an RCR involving Hazmat? You can't have untrained people doing the RCR, nor can you have untrained people in the Hazmat PPE...
I've no issues with the SES, just the way resources are allocated. It seems to me to be easier and smarted to have a single agency doing Fire & Rescue as there is so much role and resource duplication - Even in simple things like appliance stowage.
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In theory I agree I think we have similar thoughts, however I'm a realist (it might be my age or having spent a few years in government & the private sector) I personally don't think it would work. For example currently in SES the busiest RCR units get the latest gear & its not just based on cost, the older equipment is serviced and issued to the less exposed rural units and then to metro for USAR.
The SMAG (subject matter advisory group for RCR made up of vollies & payed staff) work out what is the best in current equipment, techniques & training and it is rolled out. The system is not perfect but it works.
Under your system rescue would compete with structural fire, wild fire, hazmat etc for dollars. The latest and greatest gear would end up with high profile metro units/ brigades. High risk rural units would be second (maybe)& others third. And then the competition would be between $1.2 million comms trucks, hook trucks (sorry couldn't resist), sky cranes, weird projects that keep saying the same thing etc. Rural SES units would fold as there would be nothing for them to do, RCR is our bread and butter! Then when the big one happens(What ever that may be) you won't have the people- it would be the same as pre SES - fire services can't cope etc(THATS WHY WE WERE FORMED REMEMBER?). Then there is the training = if you find it hard to get people to keep current in BA & burn over drills, how the filtered are they going to stay current in RCR? (We do a refresher every three years regardless)
Finally if you think SES members would come madly rushing to the fire services, then you are wrong. In SES we are fairly independent & we like it that way I for one can't handle the by the numbers system that CFS uses or the group structure that the fire services have. I like our flatter structure and couldn't handle your system.
So instead my vision of the future is this:- combined fire services both payed & vollie doing fire in all parts of the state & rescue at full time stations & strategically located rescue units across the state wearing orange & called State Emergency Service. Both services managed by SAFECOM, SES properly resourced could finally to be able to carry out its daily role of rescue & also its civil defence role properly in all units.
In areas where numbers are low of course a combined unit makes sense fire side trained by fire & the rescue side trained by SES. (Onkaparinga, Blanchtown,Bordertown?)
Duplication - in areas where SES operates then the fire services should not have rescue equipment, only their combitools to break into buildings on fire. If they have RCR gear then they shouldn't that is duplication.
As far as your Hazmat question - after watching a Hazmat team set up and do its thing the Golden hour doesn't mean much so its not relevent, fuels of course are managed differently & we have the gear that can operate in that environment.
So I guess the real question is should SES take over ALL rescue in areas not under the control of full time fire crews. Now there is something to think about. :evil:
cheers
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Of course its going to be a very difficult thing to implement, and with some of the attitudes between members of the services, it certainly wouldn't be a smooth thing.
In terms of how it would be funded, it wouldn't necessarily 'compete' with all the other roles that the Fire Service provides. The funding that was once allocated to the SES would be carried into the budget of the Fire Service. Im not talking about removing RCR from the SES, im talking about rolling the SES into the fire service, as it once was.
Think about the duplication of resources on appliances. Stokes litters, rapid intervention tools, power saws, recip saws, lighting, cordage, etc etc. A high proportion of stowage on a rescue appliance has a dual role at the scene of a fire. If things are kept separate and you remove anything vaguely rescue from a fire truck, then you are going to need to call the SES to fires for RIT, Salvage and Ventialtion. Then they need to be trained in BA, have new PPE and are essentially a fire truck without the water, hoses or pump.
Its much easier to take that SES Rescue truck, give it a paint job, and combine it into the local fire service.\
I don't know who you were doing Hazmat with, but it doesnt take that long to put on a Gas Suit, and walk 50 meters into the hot zone and get to work. Its far better than dealing with the Hazmat for god knows how long, making the area safe THEN having to extricate the poor bloke in the vehicle.
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As I said I agree in theory - in practice who knows & reading the final submission the CFSVA has put to the F&ES review, I wouldn't trust the fire services to take care of us! And the fire services already have rescue only appliances, so they have experience with fire trucks without water. We already have some BA trained operators - the other gear you talk about is low cost (except for the Rapid Intervention Tools - combi tools which are not RCR equipment). And how often would you need/ use a basket litter at a fire? Again sounds like rescue to me :wink:. As I said great idea in theory, in practice???
Hasn't work in any state in Australia so far, the US is different they have the population base, England the same without the distances to travel. The reality is at the end of the day, we that is SES won't have much say in the matter at all. If the government want it changed, it will change.
Wonder why CFS didn't pick up USAR, another high profile big dollar rescue task :-D
Anyway think I have said enough on this subject - cheers
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I'm sorry, its my fault for trying to think of a wonderful happy place where everyone gets along and every has the interests of the community at heart. Its not like that now, and nor will it ever be. Maybe its just like communism, its great on paper, terrible in practice. :D
Of course the fire service has rescue only appliances, the thing is that they can be (and often are) pressed into a firefighting support role. I just like having that flexibility there. Combi tools are primarily an RCR tool, using one to gain entry to a building is a very slow process as they are not designed specifically for that purpose.
Stokes litter at a fire? One of the easiest ways of removing a downed firefighter from inside a building.
Why didnt the CFS pick up USAR? Simple really - we only do bushfires, according to head office :oops:
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Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?
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I used to believe in the perfect world too :-( unfortunately I'm getting older & wiser :wink:. Combitools are not recommended in the RCR directory -dson't meet the standard (not my idea its in the book).
I know I said I was finished on this subject but in a fully combined service, I would think the bean counters (after all that would be the only reason it would happen :-D) in our area there would only be two primary rescue units not the current 4 - talk about spread a bit thin!
As I said in a perfect world a great idea - reality the only reason it would happen is to save money.
cheers
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Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?
You could try to set up every Pumper as a Rescue Pumper, but my god, think of the cost blowout.
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Or better still not commit the rescue resource to a fire.... Now there's an idea for you! :wink:
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Or better still not commit the rescue resource to a fire.... Now there's an idea for you! :wink:
Theres more to Rescue than RCR, and the gear carried on a Rescue appliance can be very useful at fires :wink:
Now brigades who have their groups rescue resource supplying lines into a fire, rather than just sitting up the road as a tool resource, THATS an idea for you!
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Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?
ahh exactly why i like stand alone rescues, some dont though...
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Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?
ahh exactly why i like stand alone rescues, some dont though...
I totally agree. Stand alone rescues are never at risk of being caught with lines inside a fire, and depending on the number of seat, can get out the door faster than waiting and waiting to fill seats.
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Ah so you guys what more stand alone rescue appliances & know where over 68 fully equipped trucks are without having to spend a cent - the plot thickens :wink:
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Ah so you guys what more stand alone rescue appliances & know where over 68 fully equipped trucks are without having to spend a cent - the plot thickens :wink:
Thats why you take those trucks, repaint them, and place them into their local fire stations! :P
A rescue truck in a fire station can do everything that an SES one can *AND* more! :wink:
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Ok you win! (joking of course)Won't wear yellow but :-D
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Ok you win! (joking of course)Won't wear yellow but :-D
Its ok, we can all wear baby poo brown!
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So as a cost saving measure you repaint the truck, then have to add bays to all the stations so they have somewhere to live......
There are a myriad of reasons to join the services, there are just as many not to... and examples of how each can and cant work through australia.
The key is finding a balance between the both.
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So as a cost saving measure you repaint the truck, then have to add bays to all the stations so they have somewhere to live......
There are a myriad of reasons to join the services, there are just as many not to... and examples of how each can and cant work through australia.
The key is finding a balance between the both.
Think of the money saved even in salaries of the SES paid staff. Good grief don't get me started on the moeny that could be saved with a single fire service :P
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So as a cost saving measure you repaint the truck, then have to add bays to all the stations so they have somewhere to live......
There are a myriad of reasons to join the services, there are just as many not to... and examples of how each can and cant work through australia.
The key is finding a balance between the both.
No No you take over our buildings too :wink:
Mines been half taken over already :-D
We won't be leaving the beer behind but!
"Think of the money saved even in salaries of the SES paid staff."
You obviously don't know how many paid staff there are in SES - I doubt if it would pay for 4-5 34ps :wink:
All jokes aside, I think the practical difficulties would far outway the benefits.
Having enough crews for one, operational differences, competing priorities & you would loose a fair percentage of members for several reasons as you said they join one service over another because of the speciality of that service i.e. fire fighters like combating fire, rescue members like rescue - may not like fire at all!
Then there is the personality thing - the knob head factor, the reason some join a particular unit/ brigade /service is they don't like the person who runs the other brigade (knob head!).
As you and others have said it would be better to learn how to use each others capabilities & to call us when required instead of trying to "merge us".
Any way it is not going to happen and I think I have made my feelings pretty clear so - cheers
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i was talking to a state officer fro SES last Thursday and he said that there would be no merging of services at all there will remain three services for rescue and two for fire.
they have done it in WA and has not been a good outcome with services now not being able to respond because there crew walked out does it not make sense to have one service that is rescue only which in turn leaves the fire services to do what they do best fight fires.
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Ah, but what the fire service does best *includes* rescue :)
All manner of rescue gear can be used at fires, and at calls that the fire brigade get responded to, whereas very little firefighting equipment can be also used at rescues.
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Ok,so what about in country towns where there are members in CFA/SES/SAAS,the people at the top need to come out and work with these units/brigade's as they wish to merge as the town can no longer provide new volunteers for all 3 service's.They have been trying to merge and in many cases the SES units want to hand over the RCR to CFS but someone at the top keeps saying NO.....This is not a isolated case...
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well people at the top saying no to practical decisions for localities seems to be a common thing.
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Ah, but what the fire service does best *includes* rescue :)
All manner of rescue gear can be used at fires, and at calls that the fire brigade get responded to, whereas very little firefighting equipment can be also used at rescues.
And what we do best as well :wink:
The handing over of RCR response in one or two localities is a local thing and would happen if there was a good outcome.
Not sure about this people at the top said No stuff, as it would be up to the RCR committee. If the units can't hand over their RCR responsibilities and members of the CFS are so concerned, Why don't they join the unit?
With so much media exposure around CFS struggling to have enough crews to respond to tasks, Why are they so interested in increasing the work load?
As our friend from Kapunda has said the WA experiment hasn't worked & if it was tried here with the current CFS structure, attitude & systems; I for one wouldn't be transfering & neither would a lot of the people I know.
Nothing personal but I like the way we do things, don't think we need another level of management and having to get permission to get a $50 light fixed for example :-D.
Personally I don't think it will happen, once the people in power (including SAPOL)see what SES achieves, how little it costs & understand the implications of a combined service they won't support it even if CFS management thinks its a great idea (SAMFS don't).
So keep plugging away CFS, one day you may see the light and stop trying to take stuff off us and learn to work with us instead! One can only hope :wink:
And I think you are right except it should be two rescue services SAMFS full timers & SES rescue :-D Until it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that a single service provider can cover the whole state not just Adelaide and that people in rural areas get looked after just as well as our city counterparts (i.e aerial appliances for example).
cheers
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Now what if we had only one fire service... :-P
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Not this Christmas :-D
Maybe one day
cheers
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So keep plugging away CFS, one day you may see the light and stop trying to take stuff off us and learn to work with us instead! One can only hope wink
What if...CFS & SES Joined....and all the SES volly's joined CFS while retaining all the training from SES :) see my point....Win win situation...
CFS volunteers can easily bolster SES workforce, SES volunteers can help the CFS workforce within the single organisation :)
its not as if..once SES join CFS that the SES vollys are redundant NOOOO.
South Australia FIRE and RESCUE service :)
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Its a common theme which I have said many times works in theory, in practice ???
WA didn't work, QLD still has separate services & QLD Fire & rescue.
Other states have dismissed the idea as a poor one.
So may be one day.
cheers
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Hello, I am not a member of anyone of these organisations, however I am an ambo/paramedic and I therefore have a different point of view.
I have been at MVA's where MFS, CFS and SES are all there, and SES directed/diverted traffic and MFS assisted CFS with the rescue stuff.
However in the country, some towns don't have a CFS, so SES does the lot.
Personally in my view though, if I require rescue, I ask our comms for fire service and they can organise it by calling fire comms. And if it is an SES rescue unit, so be it, as long as they can get the job done and assist me in getting my patient out safely and in a timely manner.
As for merging, well each community has it's own needs, and at then end of the day, the services have to meet them in the best possible way and if that means CFS and SES merg or share so be it. You are all there for they same reasons at the end of the day, support each other and help each other, cause you may never know when you require the assistance of the other service, could be for a MVA or if your house is on fire or you kid goes missing or you break a leg in a national park or something. We are all at the end of the day Emergency and Rescue organisations, and are professionals regardless if you get paid or not, and we all have a job to do.
Just my view on the topic of discussion.
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Nice one Knackers thanks for your input. :-)
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yep thanks mate. well said
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What if...CFS & SES Joined....and all the SES volly's joined CFS while retaining all the training from SES :) see my point....Win win situation...
CFS volunteers can easily bolster SES workforce, SES volunteers can help the CFS workforce within the single organisation :)
its not as if..once SES join CFS that the SES vollys are redundant NOOOO.
South Australia FIRE and RESCUE service :)
Disagree Zippy. I used to be a 'one-service' believer, but a older & wiser now. Only a win/win in a full-time fire-service where they have lots of paid spare time on their hands to maintain proficiency.
In Volunteer Land I believe it's a lose/lose situation. See the "would you let a stranger on your appliance" thread. As one person unkindly posted (but probably accurately) - 15000 volunteers, 8000 with half a clue, 1000 actually know what they are doing. Now double the amount that those 15000 are supposed to know & be proficient in.
The Big Whinge is that too much time is already demanded for training & etc. Possibly only drowned by the Big Whinge that the required training isn't available in timely manner...
Double the training demands and watch people resign in their droves. And see even fewer of the remainder actually achieving competency. My guesstimate is you could revise the above figures to more like 10000, 5000 & 500 respectively. That's after adding SES numbers to CFS.
Neither Service would be any better off. Certainly the community would be no better off. Better to get really decent interworking arrangements going between the services, modify training to suit (eg teach SES RCR how to do -their- job in hazmat suits, teach CFS casualty handling) & encourage people to join the service that suits them.
THAT is a win/win.
my two bob's worth
cheers
AJ
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I don't think SES needs to shut down altogether. But these small country towns where the only thing SES does is RCR, then why do you need both. Like the paper says we are struggling, so how can splitting the available people be a good idea, especially in a number of areas where they are mostly dual members. The fire service is always going to go to these jobs, so they may as well do both roles.
Now before you all panic, there is a heap of work SES can do, eg storm damage, search, USAR etc etc. Look at the urban units and how many jobs they do and none of them are RCR units.
I know a lot don't think the single unit will work, but can those people tell me how we are going to keep staffing these seperate services.
I notice chook thinks those of us in the CFS should join SES, umm, isn't that the same as merging, yes, I think it is, whilst they haven't physically merged, they are in fact doing both roles. So whats the point of doing that.
In regards to vehicles, we need to look at what the CFA have, the large stand alone rescues, with all the kit on it, Chook, your just seeing the CFS in your local area, they have some of the most basic trucks CFS has on offer, it can be done.
Just remember, a town is always gonna have a fire service, no matter what, kind of hard to put a fire out with an SES truck.
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In regards to vehicles, we need to look at what the CFA have, the large stand alone rescues, with all the kit on it, Chook, your just seeing the CFS in your local area, they have some of the most basic trucks CFS has on offer, it can be done.
Just remember, a town is always gonna have a fire service, no matter what, kind of hard to put a fire out with an SES truck.
Only thing missing from RCR trucks is a 750L water tank, High pressure pump and a Hose Reel lol...im sure it could be tucked in somewhere :wink:
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Only thing missing from RCR trucks is a 750L water tank, High pressure pump and a Hose Reel lol...im sure it could be tucked in somewhere :wink:
The fact that it has no tank/pump is a *GOOD* thing Zippy :)
Keep that scheiße off my Rescue truck thank you!
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but think about the amount of times a Rescue truck arrives in the middle of nowhere to a RCR...where it could be a Vehicle Fire job as well (unfortunately)...and ya sitting there "where the filtered is the fire truck"...
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Thats why both fire cover AND Rescue should be turned out. A rescue truck can roll with 2 crew, the rest jump on the pump?
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sorry have to reply - remember its you guys that want usto hand over RCR - we don't want to take over fire!
Yes there are some units who don't do RCR - so what!
There are also some SES units that call out figures are 90% RCR & not fenderbenders.
And yes I'm aware of your rescue appliances - not that many around is there?
Zippy if I turn out to a task & there isn't fire cover then I keep hasseling until there is! We don't do fire - unless its from a boat :-D
The idea of CFS members joining their local rescue unit was because of a past alledged
issue- not to poach CFS members.
Except for one brigade (who are very good by the way) we don't have any CFS/MFS stand alone rescue appliances in this area & things work fine.
So from our point of view no issues, so the only real issue is ensuring that fire & rescue are responded in a timely manner regardless of who is providing the service.
Thought for the day
I remember a story of a past GO who said that they were taking over RCR, the controller he was talking to said nothing but the following week approached the same GO with a picture of a very nice appliance (fire) and said that seeing how CFS was going to do rescue we may as well do fire :wink:
cheers
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Thats why both fire cover AND Rescue should be turned out. A rescue truck can roll with 2 crew, the rest jump on the pump?
I agree.
They don't have to be from the same service, and the people on them don't have to be fully cross-trained. They simply need to have enough appreciation of each others' jobs to work together, & assist the other if required.
Having different PPE colour helps the I/C identify who has what skills.
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still why would CFS want to take RCR away from SES?
wouldnt it be better for a service who can leave one job to respond to a RCR. its a bit hard to release a CFS truck from a going fire least a SES crew can leave a storm job for a RCR.
at the end of the day it dosent matter who dose it however in built up area (metro) MFS should be RCR regardless of who is around them as they have a much faster turnout time. and in rural areas SES provide RCR except where it is to far for the nearest SES to provide RCR as primary response and hence CFS rescue responds. with SES backing up if required and same with CFS
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still why would CFS want to take RCR away from SES?
wouldnt it be better for a service who can leave one job to respond to a RCR. its a bit hard to release a CFS truck from a going fire least a SES crew can leave a storm job for a RCR.
at the end of the day it dosent matter who dose it however in built up area (metro) MFS should be RCR regardless of who is around them as they have a much faster turnout time. and in rural areas SES provide RCR except where it is to far for the nearest SES to provide RCR as primary response and hence CFS rescue responds. with SES backing up if required and same with CFS
well in saying that, wouldnt it be beneficial for both services to be trained up for RCR. because its not always a ses can leave a storm damage, they do more then that. ie land search.
just a thourght, because logically it would be better, then you have a second reponse unit aswell either way.
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Country kid - you are a breath of fresh air in what is an otherwise rather repetative conversation of course they should! Those who live within a hours drive of Adelaide have little understanding of the realities of true rural life.
For example the Mallee is covered by CFS not SES (and judging by the comments on another topic will remain so :-() The eastern part of the mid north, parts of the western region and part of the Riverland itself are the same. So are several parts of the lower end of east region. The future may of course be different, however until that time the response will be SAMFS or CFS or SES. I think it is unlikely that new SES Rescue units will be formed, what would be a good stepping stone instead is we all do the same training course, that there is a SAFECOM head of RCR and the best instructors (paid or vollie) train all of our people, the same way and that units or brigades must meet the same standard in equipment, training and response as discribed in the directory(no combitools).
Anyway think I have said enough - cheers
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still why would CFS want to take RCR away from SES?
Where CFS is not the RCR responder, the locals probably don't particularly want to be. The paid staff long ago got over the supposed turf wars. Central funding & GRN have fixed response & equipment issues. There is no valid reason to so so except where the accredited SES RCR Unit can no longer meet response criteria. And then only if the local CFS brigade a) can & b) is willing to do so.
Mostly, it is likely that just a few theorists on the list want to do so. For reasons that aren't relevant to reality in those areas where SES are the accredited RCR responder.
cheers
AJ (CFS)
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Ah, but what the fire service does best *includes* rescue :)
I do wish you'd make up your mind lad.
To quote you from another thread:
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"16,000 volunteers, 8,000 have half a clue, 1,000 can do the job proficiently.
Thats pretty much what it boils down to sadly. I know far too many people have their heart in the right place but the ability just isn't quite there, no matter how hard people try to help them out."
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So either you are stating that on the whole, the fire service is no use at putting out fires either, or you are a troll.
Which is it ?
AJ
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I said what the fire service dos best is rescue, not necessarily the CFS.
And yeah, the CFS does tend to cock up a fair number of fires it attends.
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I said what the fire service dos best is rescue, not necessarily the CFS.
And yeah, the CFS does tend to cock up a fair number of fires it attends.
Still doesn't answer the question - if you don't believe the CFS can't be relied on to do a simple thing like put out fires, why on earth do you want to reassign a complex task like RCR to them (us) ?
AJ
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I could say the same thing about the SES. They turn simple tree down jobs into long, drawn out overly complex incidents. Why should they do rescue when they can't handle simple non life threatening storm and tempest incidents?
I believe that Rescue is a fire service task, regardless of the individual agency in question.
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And yeah, the CFS does tend to cock up a fair number of fires it attends.
MFS have been known to turn a quite simple fire into a large job as well. :-)
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MFS have been known to turn a quite simple fire into a large job as well. :-)
They sure do, along with the majority of fire services in Australia :)
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Not all of the SES turn the simple into the complex - you tar us all with the same brush!
Shame on you :wink:
So if CFS can't fight fires & SES can't do simple tasks, then which service does that leave?
I think we know the answer :roll:
It won't happen - period!
If we can't get teachers, doctors or any other paid professional to move to the sticks what makes you think full time SAMFS officers would? And they would have to be full timers cause you can't get enough retained.
And the other problem you have with retained is this - some employers don't look at them the same i.e CFS & SES don't get paid. But you (SAMFS) do therefore its secondary employment & they won't release them to got to callouts.
Also the cost would be massive - can't put SAMFS in tin sheds without facilities :-D
What about the wage component?
So I think you are very wide of the mark, we have been involved in rescue since the civil defence days, we have the latest in training, great gear & finally people who are committed to one thing - RESCUE in all of its forms.
We don't have to worry about burn over drills, structural fire, hazmat, compartment fire fighting etc etc.
If you were right then thats where we would be heading & so would every other state.
And we haven't cocked up many at all!
Sorry mate - your argument in theory is great, in practice lots of holes :wink:
cheers
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Who said anything at all about SAMFS? Not me!
The SES in the civil defense days were created as an agency to assist the Fire Service :wink: then disbanded until the Cold War!
So.... what happens at a fire when you need rescue equipment? Call the SES? Then who can use it? The Fire Service aren't trained on the gear, and the SES aren't equipped or trained to go into a fire!
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Ah but could be :wink:
Well I couldn't think of any other fire service (remember what you said about CFS)- unless there is another?
And SES is already used at structural incidents.
And this isn't exactly the thread is it - RCR remember, and we have been used at fire incidents. Surprised?
And some of us are - again surprised?
So the reality is there isn't any reason to take rescue off SES, other than puritan thinking, we are as a whole are good at what we specialise in.
We are improving all of the time, getting rid of bad ideas, techniques and behaviours. Newcastle for example has challenged a lot of preconceived ideas, old dinosaurs who won't accept modern ideas or change their attitudes are going.
We are far more accountable in every thing we do; training, recruitment, finance & operations. And learning all of the time.
The rescue service (as we are all still part of the civil defence organisation)was created to enable the fire service to focus on what it does best to protect the citizens of this country from the effects of fire.
Now if our masters above believe that you guys don't have enough work to do & hand all rescue over to the fire service - so be it!
I believe it would be a mistake, but at the end of the day wouldn't loose any sleep over it. And who knows may get a normal life back :-D
cheers
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I guess the basic problem with this thread is you can't takeover "RCR" from a service. It really has to be all rescue or nothing.
Tell me more about the SES being used at fire incidents, in a search and rescue role, for persons trapped inside the structure on fire?
I'd be very surprised to hear that SES members have been used alongside firefighters in structures involved in fire in a rescue role.
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No not quite providing shoring while fire fighters inspect the premises.
And lighting, crime scene protection, evacuation and assistance at forward control areas.
And you right it would be all forms of rescue not just RCR.
Remember your counterparts in the country don't have the same capabilities as the metro stations.
Remember our basic training currently is from the old civil defence days(modernised of course), so searching bomb damaged, fire effected structures to effect a rescue is part of the training. Obviously not to the same level as you guys in the full time Mets, thats why USAR is not a big stretch for us - different marking systems and acronyms :-( (filtered Americans!)thats all. We have been doing it since day one, same as our counterparts interstate.
Now of course level two is now part of USAR & we have people who are doing that. And some of us have been trained in "snatch type" rescues in BA and all(in the context of a downed fellow fighter)!
It is a pity that the other services haven't recognised this fact, because now that we don't use all of this training(that you have to pass prior to going on a callout or doing any other rescue training)we are starting to think its a waste of time!
Why do something we don't use? This is a pity, think what assistance a small properly trained rescue team could be to a local retained SAMFS or CFS brigade!
What is even sader is when the fire services want to duplicate a resource (boat) instead of using us instead - thankfully saner heads prevailed :-D
A question for you how well trained are retained SAMFS & CFS in rescue really?
And how often are those skills practiced?
The good news here anyway is that the head of the local coordinating authority has witnessed some of our capabilities & is constantly being made aware of others (he was plesantly surprised).
So around here when some one asks for rescue, there is only one service - SES!
I guess at the end of the day, if the fire services want our help; just ask!
And if there is a capability short fall it can be addressed, I think you guys are missing out on a very valuable asset. Its just a pity you can't see it.
cheers
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Every thread is starting to turn into service rivalry! . . . - The buck stops with the fact that I (and probably half the population) don't give a flying F*** who cuts me out of my god-dam car, or who drags my a$$ out of a burning building, as long as it gets done!
Numbers.. - You get trapped in a car after an MVA, you saying your not going to let the SES cut you out because you think it should be a Fire role? . . I doubt it.
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Yep starting to get a bit board with the whole thing and you are right - at the end of the day nobody really gives a toss.
Shouldn't keep trying to fight our corner(I guess someone has to but :wink:), some are very set in their ways & I don't think that will ever change.
Our joint lords and masters will eventually sought the whole thing out anyway & the collective we will have little say in the matter.
Appologies to all for prolonging this discussion far longer than it should have been.
cheers
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I guess the point a lot of FF's are trying to make is that we are going anyway, and its not getting any easier for any service to recruit, so why try and split services in time critical jobs. I know some area's where not a single member of the local SES actually lives in the town the station is in. Seems rather odd. So thats the kind of perception we have of SES, they are always going to be there, but when it comes to time critical things or getting out the door, its not always practical. We are only talking the RCR side of things, and I can tell you that whilst you guys in the riverland might be gun, its not the same picture everywhere else. Its filtered hard to keep multiple emergency services alive in small towns, eventually something is gonna have to give.
Personally I would like to see super SES units in the large towns that have the numbers, so that they can run the big searches, storm damage, USAR etc etc. But the fire service should look after the initial time critical things such as RCR, Cat 1 USAR, the initial arrival things. I guess coming from the metro area I am used to 30 min plus response times from SES. So my judgement isn't as spot on.
I am looking from a recruitment and viability point of view, Long term I can't see a lot of towns managing mulitple emergency services, something has gotta give, and like it or not, I would be surprised if a town gave up their fire service.
Thats my view, take it or leave it :-)
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Most SES members i have spoken to say they don;t want to fight fires and hence are in the SES as opposed to CFS so cross training isn't really the fix we are after.
Now how many SES units are on primary RCR for a certain area?If they do a good job as it is in loby and strath for example then let it be it works well there is no reason to take it away from them.
on the same token there isn't any reason to get RCR gear for mt barker SES if the CFS do a good job. as it would duplicate resources.
however I think this whole topic is way out of proportion and there are many much more important issues that money time etc should be devoted to
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Most SES members i have spoken to say they don;t want to fight fires and hence are in the SES as opposed to CFS so cross training isn't really the fix we are after.
Now how many SES units are on primary RCR for a certain area?If they do a good job as it is in loby and strath for example then let it be it works well there is no reason to take it away from them.
on the same token there isn't any reason to get RCR gear for mt barker SES if the CFS do a good job. as it would duplicate resources.
however I think this whole topic is way out of proportion and there are many much more important issues that money time etc should be devoted to
Yakka, when it comes to places like Loby though, it has to be rememberd that the members are the same.. - Its not like some areas, where its two "individual" services. - Really, its just an appliance from each service, manned by the same individuals, in the same station, who just put on different turnouts depending on the call. - I don't think places like Loby should be used to compare against other areas with individual services..
I think pumprescue makes a good point.. - I still believe however, than whomever it is during the incident, as long as the job gets done, in a timely manner, then the outcome has been acheived.
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As much as this(most?) discussions tend to end up going around in circles, the problem is that both sides have good arguments for and against. As Pumprescue said, its always going to be hard for small towns to support multiple emergency services. Hell its hard enough for some places to support only one.
It almost makes sense to have a single agency providing two services that are inexplicably intertwined. (Fire and Rescue)
But of course, it wouldn't be the fire service if people actually did things that made sense :wink:
As I don't know much about the Loby situation, would it be that hard to repaint the truck, and have it called Lobethal Rescue? Seeing as though it already operates out of the pool of CFS volunteers and is housed in a CFS station?
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Simple reason it came out of SES's measly budget & not out of the massive budgets of the fire services :wink:
"I guess the point a lot of FF's are trying to make is that we are going anyway, and its not getting any easier for any service to recruit, so why try and split services in time critical jobs. I know some area's where not a single member of the local SES actually lives in the town the station is in. Seems rather odd. So thats the kind of perception we have of SES, they are always going to be there, but when it comes to time critical things or getting out the door, its not always practical. We are only talking the RCR side of things, and I can tell you that whilst you guys in the riverland might be gun, its not the same picture everywhere else. Its filtered hard to keep multiple emergency services alive in small towns, eventually something is gonna have to give."
I can give examples of CFS & SAMFS Retained who are in similar positions - at least they don't work close to the station/ Brigade. But that would be childish :wink:
And when paged at the same time, we normally beat our fire service counterparts to the scene. So in this modern age time critical is irrelevant.
I don't think we are guns at road crash rescue (wish we were, but we aren't bad either), the guns are at the town down the road that is by a nearly dried up lake that starts with B :-D.
There are lots of examples of "dual units" not just Loby
And there is room for all except for the smallest of towns, and they can't support a fire service either. And we have closed none functioning units, several in fact. Has CFS attempted that yet?
At the end of the day we are talking two different worlds, metro/ urban fringe & rural. And out of the many CFS people I know around here I could only count 3 who agree with your proposal.
Even my SES boss (who is also a CFS vollie), does not think we should give up RCR - thats why I was transfered to my current unit to revitalise it & to turn it into a credible rescue team (which it now is). We could have quite easily gone with what you guys have suggested (I would have less grey hairs :-D).
However as they say "what will be will be".
cheers
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Probably just my experience with useless SES units and decent Rescue/Heavy Rescue CFS brigades is clouding my judgment. I'd imagine you would be the reverse.
Not to mention that there are local CFS brigades I wouldn't trust with traffic control, let alone anything else...
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I think the local firies (both lots) are good at what they do - saw them (CFS anway) in action at a horrible RCR last year ( when I was at the unit near the drying up lake) two persons were incinerated.
Anyway they seem to know what they were doing, and as I have said previously we have done a fair bit of fire related work (wildfire & a bit of structural) and I really appreciate having you guys around & the work you do.
Even seen the local mets in action practicing RCR and there not bad, so we must be fortunate around here having good crews from all services :-D.
I guess at the end of the day its not the colour of the uniform but the quality of the people in them :wink:
Thanks for a lively discussion you put some very interesting points across and gave me a better insight into what the fire services consider rescue, which I will pass on to my troops for future reference, in the hope of improving further.
cheers
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we a primary RCR for our area and we are surrounded by CFS rescue and MFS rescue we can work well together when we are all invited to play together.
as for fires my unit is lucky enough to be trained in the burn over drill and have 3 members trained in at least CFS BFF 1 or CFS level 1 we do respond to assist at fires i was on a call to Williamstown the other day to assist with a tree fire.
my unit is very hot on turnout times and our unit manager pushes us to be out the door in about 5mins from pager going off with a crew of no less then 4 RCR trained members with out blowing our trumpet is faster then both the CFS and Retained MFS cfs is due to members living 10-25mins out of town and MFS is due to members working out of town during the day so as for saying that CFS/MFS for time critical jobs isnt always the best idea it aldepends on the area in which it is located.
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Thats excellent work mate!
"and our unit manager pushes us to be out the door in about 5mins from pager going off" - those UM's can be mongrels can't they :wink:
We are the same - will be better with a couple more qualified operators in the new year.
Keep up the good work & cheers