SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: rescue5271 on October 12, 2007, 08:46:39 AM
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Well its that time of the year when brigade's will be doing their burn over drill but would it be nice if the people at the top changed the same drill that we get each year??? Time that we looked at what to do if in a strike team and your crew gets caught out in a forest fire or if your on a dozer trail... People do get sick of the same drill each year. Time for a new drill next year??
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Time that we looked at what to do if in a strike team and your crew gets caught out in a forest fire or if your on a dozer trail...
just curious... would that vary the response to the burnover at all? Youd still be working with an appliance....? surely the same procedure is relevant.
personally i think its good to just keep trying to drum the same procedure into us... i dont see a need to vary it really.
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Thats like saying: "Im bored with gas cooling, can we do something different?"
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I think 5217 was referring to a burnover drill for if you are on 5 layflats and can't actauly get to a truck or using, wait for it, a Rakehoe (shudder)
. What do you do?
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the issue is that each year uts the same your 30 meters into scrub abd so on,my point is what about when crews are on the back of appliance(crew deck) and for some reason...Wind change they are caught of guard....Sure we have showen members what to do if your 30 meters from the appliance and how you have to get back and take action...My point is what do we do if part of a stike team going along a forest/scrub line and we become involved in a burn over while on the rear of the appliance????
Now I hear you all say but it should be the same as the year burn over drill but its a little hard to do when you have hose laying on the crew deck or you have crews members who have only ever done burnover drill where your on the end of the hose.....
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the issue is that each year uts the same your 30 meters into scrub abd so on,my point is what about when crews are on the back of appliance(crew deck) and for some reason...Wind change they are caught of guard....Sure we have showen members what to do if your 30 meters from the appliance and how you have to get back and take action...My point is what do we do if part of a stike team going along a forest/scrub line and we become involved in a burn over while on the rear of the appliance????
Now I hear you all say but it should be the same as the year burn over drill but its a little hard to do when you have hose laying on the crew deck or you have crews members who have only ever done burnover drill where your on the end of the hose.....
If you're on the back of the truck and are caught... gee its pretty hard, sit down, turn on protection lines and roll down the crew protection curtain. Its easier than having the branch off in the scrub and if someone has trouble adapting to already being on the back of a truck when burnt over, then my god they have no place on the back of a fire truck.
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The Burnover drill in its black and white form should be for new members so they learn the procedure and where things are. Once you are dealing with members who have been around a while it should be incorporated into other training. The best is to do it without prior notice. You still can tick all the boxes if the crews do the right thing. If you are only doing it once a year, is that really enough? Do you only practice hose lays, pumps or draughting once a year? Sounds like a few BTO's don' have much imagination.
As for, what do you do if you are too far from an appliance, you might want to revisit Prevent Injury from BFF1. It's all fairly clear.
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well isn't the idea for you to be close enough to th fire that is shouldn't be able to get to beg by the time it reaches you? Nice of you to join us wombat :-D
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I have found incorporating the drill in other training can work quite well....make sure everyone knows the drill (at least in theory) and then test them out during some other training - give the signal & see what they do.....hopefully, they all recognise the siren straight away, and take the appropriate action......
Besides, for some the drill has changed - now incorporating appliances with the in-cab air systems...that is different to the standard drill...
The basics of the drill stay the same from year to year, but how the training officer arranges the burnover drill, and in what context can change each time!! :-)
Pip
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Well fire season is almost here and I remember last year where there were a lot of brigades who hadnt done it halfway into fire season...practice makes perfect...but do it early...your life may depend on it :wink:
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Alot of our brigade members got caught out last year with this exercise, we included a command car into it to get the group officers through the training as well.
All of the exercise went well, however after doing the check over the truck no one bothered to check the command vehicle, including GO's, BTO declared it lost. :-D
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I hope you put in for a new comand car...lolololo.... At our group field day we had 30 cfs members and around 25 CFA members also did it,nice to see cross border team work at its best. CFA do it a little different to CFS but all agree its worth while to do.
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I hope you put in for a new comand car...lolololo.... At our group field day we had 30 cfs members and around 25 CFA members also did it,nice to see cross border team work at its best. CFA do it a little different to CFS but all agree its worth while to do.
How do the CFA do it?
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Alot of our brigade members got caught out last year with this exercise, we included a command car into it to get the group officers through the training as well.
All of the exercise went well, however after doing the check over the truck no one bothered to check the command vehicle, including GO's, BTO declared it lost. :-D
Fair enough. A command car got caught on Cut Hill Rd (Mt.Bold fire) in January. Got hot enough to sustain superficial damage. As did most appliances nearby.
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I think 5217 was referring to a burnover drill for if you are on 5 layflats and can't actauly get to a truck or using, wait for it, a Rakehoe (shudder)
. What do you do?
BFF1 - "Avoid Injury" has one paragraph of answers. Which are not carried forward into COSO-12. We are a long-lining Adelaide Hills brigade. This year, I intend/insist that our burn-over drill will also include a 15-lengths-away-from-the-appliance scenario.
Watched a good PPT from the US fire safety mob last training night. Key common denominator for the vast majority of fire-fighter fatalities is a quiet fire in low fuel loads which suddenly went bunta. Can't find that particular URL. But this one is good.
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/nifc/training/pdfs/refresher.Par.99870.File.dat/SWB_04_Refresher_print.pdf
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CFA,do it this way,,,crew will take cover behind heatsheild or side of water tank cover crew with woolen blankets and then use a fog spray to provide protection to the crew and appliance.there are some photos of this on the CFS PROMO site taken last weekend.After our field day i spoke to a number of CFA members and they would like to have the fire blanket and curtains fitted to their fleet like we have..CFA are going to crew cab appliances with full crew protection sprays and so on..it will take them time and money to do this....
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Fair enough. A command car got caught on Cut Hill Rd (Mt.Bold fire) in January. Got hot enough to sustain superficial damage. As did most appliances nearby.
really, is that the rumour? if you're referring to the occasion I think you are then your info is incorrect, neither the car nor appliances were "caught" but made a considered decision to enter the road. Yes things got hot but the car was never in danger of burnover and the strike team saved possibly up to 6 houses.
however all that aside, I do agree it is odd that command cars do not have the protection curtains and often not even blankets accessible in a hurry.
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really, is that the rumour? if you're referring to the occasion I think you are
then your info is incorrect, neither the car nor appliances were "caught" but
made a considered decision to enter the road. Yes things got hot but the car
was never in danger of burnover and the strike team saved possibly up to 6 houses.
however all that aside, I do agree it is odd that command cars do not have the protection curtains and often not even blankets accessible in a hurry.
We may have different perceptions of what constitutes "caught".
I don't for a moment dispute the "considered decision" to be there.
I was there.
We picked our spot to park at the property we "defended" & apart from
stray ember damage, were never at risk. (The home was well prepared
& protected us perhaps more than we protected it.)
As I understand it (we were a bit busy!), the command car was still
out on the road where the heaviest fuel loads were, & it copped more
direct heat than most of the appliances.
That is the sense in which I use the word "caught". I'd have been a
happier if the car had been off the road in a sheltered spot as our
appliance was.
"Burn-over" - too strong a word perhaps (I didn't actually use it).
Exposed to a direct & high radiant heat load - yes.
Where does one end & the other begin ?
cheers
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I am reading the latest CFA BRIGADE MAG,and in it they list the operational update and list some of the things that went wrong over the last fire season and to remind members what to watch out for...Great way of doing it as this goes to all members in the mail who can read what has been going on but also gives members the chance to read the story rather than hear it 2nd or 3rd hand...may be this is the way CFS should go rather than officer handing on information that may not be 100% as they missedout on what was being fully said....but then again CFA have a lot more money than CFS....
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I passed my burnover training with flying colours last wednesday night after missing out in October due to having other things on at the time :-)
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The CFS does burnover training wrong to start with.
There is too little training in how not to get caught in a burn over. A comment earlier on this page refers to what to do with a strike team caught in a forest fire. Quite simply unless you are working from a anchor point you do not enter that forest. I'm sure part of your training requires you to watch the deadman zone. Why would you go into a forest on a day of high enough FFDI to cause a burnover and not be right at the edge of the fire?
If caught in a burn over the training should read put your head between your knees and kiss your arse goodbye as escape from an intense burnover in anything other than a Fireking without you or your crew sustaining injuries is incredible rare.
No forest is worth that much.
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Treat a forest like a fully involved abandoned house. Attention to Exposures (risk of spread) to other area's is the priority.
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Treat a forest like a fully involved abandoned house. Attention to Exposures (risk of spread) to other area's is the priority.
Dont you dare say that near a Plantation Firefighting Instructor, they'll lynch you on the spot.
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haha i wont, but its filtered sensible not to go anywhere near a forest fire, let the w/bombers take care of it.
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ff83 said it all.
Work from an anchor point and you will almost never have a problem. Its all well and good to say let the water bombers put it out but they cant mop it up. They will knock the head down and slow the spread but the ground crews need to chase down the flanks for an effective knock down.
As extreme as some forest fires are the average size of one is 1.5HA if you dont include Ash Wednesday. With continuing improvements in Foresting the danger becomes less and less. And the chance of big fires is reduced.
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Who ever wrote the burn overdrill and the scene of the job,must think we are all fools who in their right mind would send crews into the scrub with those conditions....NOT ME.....
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The weather conditions stated in the burnover drill are just a common extreme fire day. 50 FDI
Those weather conditions were seen 10 or more times last season.
As FF83 and i have said work from an anchor point and you will almost always be safe.
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I was never suggesting let a forest burn, nor not attack a fire in extreme conditions I was mealy stating that when you leave the edge of a fire you can get yourself in trouble.
Mealy suggesting that we should let a scrub fire burn (the abandoned) house analogy is laughable. On extreme days this attitude leads to fires that become completely uncontrollable.
Crew position is key and is something that SA fire crews do very badly. The safe anchor point and keeping the immediate option to move onto burnt ground open, is key to staying safe. Leaving a fire to burn when close enough to see the fire (as opposed to back burning) is not an option.
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I think it is stupid that the cfs does it once a year and the same drill why dont they do it in different scenarios
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I think it is stupid that the cfs does it once a year and the same drill why dont they do it in different scenarios
<slaps forehead>....do you REALLY really need someone to write a scenario to complete this?? Surely the important part of the drill is to work out the return signal, what to do with pumps, hoses, valves and switches, and then to find and don the appropriate in cabin protective stuff. Spending precious staff resources writing simplistic scenarios and then circulating them service wide would appear to me to be an immense waste of time and an exercise in egg sucking for anyone in the service more than 2 years. Just a quick tick off sheets for skills and a return sheet to Region for arse covering purposes should be all that is needed. If you want a story for your drill, make one fit that is locally relevent, surely u can do that, and if you can't please don't come and play on my fireground I don't trust you?
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I think it is stupid that the cfs does it once a year and the same drill why dont they do it in different scenarios
Just flip the siren to yelp in the middle of whatever training drill your already doing and walla.... burnover drill.
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How many different scenarios can you get for a burn over drill...?
I would have thought just one..... fire's coming, appliance can't escape before fire arrives, take cover, do the appropriate things on the appliance / radio / with pumps / hoses etc, once 'passed' check on crews, appliance & surrounds. Can't see much else to it.
And as Alex says, chuck a burn over drill in the middle of something else you are doing..... my brigade does that a number of times over spring / summer training... it's good practice, and doesn't take long! Nothing required from HQ to get it done.....
Pip
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(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs31/i/2008/228/2/2/Homer_Simpson_on_fire_by_DeadReligion.jpg)
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clearly this does not represent more than 50% of our fellow firefighters, whom wouldn't be as aware as Homer
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I'm still stumped at the fact that we moved from using an almost internationally recognizable fireground evacuation signal to one that is used during the normal course of appliance movements during an incident.
Very intelligent.
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What about those GO's and DGO's who's SMD#1 has expired but they are still operating on the fireground? Does someone up the tree cross check the AIRS listed personel against SMD#1 accreditation in TAS?
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What about those GO's and DGO's who's SMD#1 has expired but they are still operating on the fireground? Does someone up the tree cross check the AIRS listed personel against SMD#1 accreditation in TAS?
Perhaps they could make up the big % of personnel that dont achieve their accreditation every year!, but I doubt it!
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In our group all groupies have done it and do it each year still waiting to see when the command cars will have a burn over drill...don't know why they don't look at interstate and how they do it it's not rocket science....
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don't know why they don't look at interstate and how they do it it's not rocket science....
surely we dont have to have east coast penis envy and follow them because they must be right.... as you say, it's not hard, surely we can pretend to be professional enough to sort it out ourselves.
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Bill, believe me you blokes are way in front of us on this one. In my opinion burn over drill is one of the things that SA do better than NSW. Fire overrun as it is called here ( we're the RFS, why use someone else's terminology when you can invent your own) is taught at BF level (initial course) then basically forgotten about until it's needed! There is no regular structured competency to maintain.
The smarter and more switched-on captains and T/Os ensure it's practiced regularly often without warning during a normal practical session. I downloaded the drill from the SACFS site (with permission) and distributed it to my brigades. It is also a regular feature at Regional and State exercises.
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surely we dont have to have east coast penis envy and follow them because they must be right.... as you say, it's not hard, surely we can pretend to be professional enough to sort it out ourselves.
Thank you misterteddy, I'm flattered
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I guess one day we will see the paperwork for burn over drill in command cars,but for now we have our own idea on how it should be done...
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Hi Guys,
Just after your thoughts. TFS are starting to do a similar thing, as part of their drill they are taking firelighters, fuel cans, chainsaws etc off the truck and placing them away from the truck. If possible the truck is to be placed so that the front of the truck is facing towards where the fire is coming from. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either just curious about every ones thoughts, the TFS boys are divided on it. But if these are good ideas it could help improve the CFS drill
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Hi Guys,
Just after your thoughts. TFS are starting to do a similar thing, as part of their drill they are taking firelighters, fuel cans, chainsaws etc off the truck and placing them away from the truck. If possible the truck is to be placed so that the front of the truck is facing towards where the fire is coming from. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either just curious about every ones thoughts, the TFS boys are divided on it. But if these are good ideas it could help improve the CFS drill
you mean the front of the truck.....the part with the glass and rubber and plastic in it....where the people are kept?.....as opposed to the back of the truck, where the bits of crap that can be replaced live, the back....thats as far away from the front, where the people are kept? If we get down to worrying about the 1L of 1:25 mix in the chainsaw.....shits are really trumps. Spend the time more usefully fighting for a piece of the single crew protection blanket the CFS kindly provides that magically isnt affected by the division between front and back seats. Maybe the Tas boys should try thinking with the other head....they seem to have too tight a grip on the current one
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Hi Guys,
Just after your thoughts. TFS are starting to do a similar thing, as part of their drill they are taking firelighters, fuel cans, chainsaws etc off the truck and placing them away from the truck. If possible the truck is to be placed so that the front of the truck is facing towards where the fire is coming from. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either just curious about every ones thoughts, the TFS boys are divided on it. But if these are good ideas it could help improve the CFS drill
Their idea is that the front windscreen is the toughest window in the truck and is less likely to break when hit with the fire.
you mean the front of the truck.....the part with the glass and rubber and plastic in it....where the people are kept?.....as opposed to the back of the truck, where the bits of crap that can be replaced live, the back....thats as far away from the front, where the people are kept? If we get down to worrying about the 1L of 1:25 mix in the chainsaw.....shits are really trumps. Spend the time more usefully fighting for a piece of the single crew protection blanket the CFS kindly provides that magically isnt affected by the division between front and back seats. Maybe the Tas boys should try thinking with the other head....they seem to have too tight a grip on the current one
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Hi Guys,
Just after your thoughts. TFS are starting to do a similar thing, as part of their drill they are taking firelighters, fuel cans, chainsaws etc off the truck and placing them away from the truck. If possible the truck is to be placed so that the front of the truck is facing towards where the fire is coming from. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either just curious about every ones thoughts, the TFS boys are divided on it. But if these are good ideas it could help improve the CFS drill
you mean the front of the truck.....the part with the glass and rubber and plastic in it....where the people are kept?.....as opposed to the back of the truck, where the bits of crap that can be replaced live, the back....thats as far away from the front, where the people are kept? If we get down to worrying about the 1L of 1:25 mix in the chainsaw.....shits are really trumps. Spend the time more usefully fighting for a piece of the single crew protection blanket the CFS kindly provides that magically isnt affected by the division between front and back seats. Maybe the Tas boys should try thinking with the other head....they seem to have too tight a grip on the current one
You mean stick your head between your legs and kiss your a_ss goodbye.
I thought it was a magic blanket
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KDOO..... you mean the front windscreen offers more protection than the rear cab window, that in just about every truck these days is protected by either a crew deck structure, or at least lockers, or pump, or at worst, distance from the flames..... :-o
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I didn't say I agreed with them but that was the arguement they put to me
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In NSW we technically teach the same thing re removing all the gear from the appliance, but practically, if you have time to do all that then you have time to get the hell out! As for appliance positioning, back to the approaching fire, hopefully you would already have the appliance facing this way if you are considering your escape routes.
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just wondering im a firefighter in another organisation in australia over xmas i come home am i aloud onto the truck or do i have to do my burnover again ???
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just wondering im a firefighter in another organisation in australia over xmas i come home am i aloud onto the truck or do i have to do my burnover again ???
Has it been over a year since you last did your burn over drill? If so, then yes, you'll need to do it again. It's an annual requirment.
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just wondering im a firefighter in another organisation in australia over xmas i come home am i aloud onto the truck or do i have to do my burnover again ???
Has it been over a year since you last did your burn over drill? If so, then yes, you'll need to do it again. It's an annual requirment.
you'll also need to be a CFS member still of course