SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: safireservice on January 26, 2008, 09:18:21 PM
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THE United Firefighters Union has demanded an inquiry into the handling of a $20 million blaze it claims was "bungled" by the Country Fire Service.
More than 350 staff were left without work when a blaze gutted Port Wakefield's Primo abattoir. Most staff were later redeployed.
About 80 volunteer firefighters tried to save the abattoir when fire broke out in the offal room on February 23 last year but they were forced back by a toxic ammonia leak.
The union says the Country Fire Service waited more than an hour for its own specially trained HAZMAT crews to arrive from Burnside, rather than ask the Metropolitan Fire Service for help.
Similarly qualified MFS crews were stationed much closer – at Salisbury, Elizabeth, Angle Vale, Prospect and Port Adelaide – but were not called, the union claims.
Union president Bill Jamieson this week said the CFS knew local brigades could not cope with a fire at the abattoir, but ignored official warnings.
He said the bungle had been covered up and he demanded an inquiry into the matter.
He claimed the union had "reliable sources" who said an internal CFS report was prepared before the blaze, instructing CFS hierarchy that a fire at the abattoir would be beyond the capabilities of local volunteers.
"It was a bungle," Mr Jamieson said.
"Allegedly a risk management assessment of Primo Meats had been conducted . . . and was ignored.
"However, information won't come through whistleblowers or even an FoI (Freedom of Information) application.
"An independent inquiry is needed otherwise the mistakes of Port Wakefield will remain covered up and the emergency service won't be forced to change."
Anger over the abattoir fire follows criticism of the CFS for refusing MFS resources when a bushfire tore through Tulka, near Port Lincoln, in 2001, destroying 15 homes and forcing residents to flee into the water. The agency also was condemned for waiting too long to call for help in fighting the deadly Black Tuesday bushfire in 2005.
Documents seen by the Sunday Mail said the CFS tackled the Primo blaze without a map of the facility – even though standard procedure required a "pre-plan" of a major structure, including maps, locations of hydrants and even keys to access the building.
"Primo staff did not offer maps of the complex early," a CFS report said.
"These were provided only after the firefighting operations were complete."
Brenton Keen, a spokesman for SAFECOM – a new co-ordination centre for the CFS, MFS and SES – said the CFS responded very quickly to the Port Wakefield blaze and there was no indication MFS support would have helped save the building.
"The first vehicle was on site within four minutes," he said.
"The first crew assessed the risk and called for additional resources."
Mr Keen denied there had been no "pre-plan" of the Primo site but admitted it could have been done better.
"A multi-agency debrief is routinely conducted as part of the continued improvement of our processes and, in this case, we held a deputy chief officers forum," he said.
"As a direct result of the Primo fire, we held this forum to discuss this particular incident.
"There was a CFS pre-plan but these days, we would get the three agencies together – MFS, CFS and SES – and plan together for any significant structural fire."
The Sunday Mail asked to speak to CFS chief officer Euan Ferguson and MFS chief officer Grant Lupton, but Mr Keen said he would speak on their behalf.
Mr Keen said the new SAFECOM system, implemented last year, would prevent any problems between the fire fighting organisations.
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Very Interesting where was this found?
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Maybe we should just surrender to the METS and have all CFS stations renamed MFS stations and manned 24/7 by mets, yeah and then all CFS voly's should where shirts thats say "I was a CFS member and I'm Incompetent".
That will make those UFU toss pots satisified.
P.S: All of the above is sarcasm!!! Dont take it personally...
P.P.S: I understand that not all mets are anti-CFS
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Very Interesting where was this found?
It will more than likely be in the Sunday Mail.
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http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23114996-5006301,00.html
Adelaide Now is running it tonight so am sure will be in Sunday Mail
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I know very little about the Primo fire, so I don't wish to comment on that...but perhaps if the UFU are demanding answers to questions about that job, then questions should be asked of MFS as to why MFS crews from Metro Adelaide were sent to a fire at the Baxter Detention centre, out of Pt Augusta, (which caused extensive damage to the complex), with those appliances & crews driving past several CFS stations, which were equipped with the gear & crews and were never called......
Pip
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Wasn't there a similar fire , with similar damage, in Sydney that the NSWFB had similar trouble with ?
How did that one go Billy Boy ?
I am sure CFS could have done a million things better, but responding a couple of MFS pumps wasn't gonna save it ? But if CFS had the same standard of equipment as MFS, well, yeah, interesting, a few clapped out 24's and a wanna be light pumper, don't know if I would be so keen to have a multi-million dollar factory in CFS area, not because of the people, but because of what was looking after me, I would at least have VERY good insurance.
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I know very little about the Primo fire, so I don't wish to comment on that...but perhaps if the UFU are demanding answers to questions about that job, then questions should be asked of MFS as to why MFS crews from Metro Adelaide were sent to a fire at the Baxter Detention centre, out of Pt Augusta, (which caused extensive damage to the complex), with those appliances & crews driving past several CFS stations, which were equipped with the gear & crews and were never called......
Pip
Well said Pip if the UFU wanna start playing the blame game perhaps they need to first get their facts straight and think of the backlash they will get as the CFS would demand answers as to why MFS crews were called to Baxter and other places for fires and the CFS werent even paged
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Union president Bill Jamieson this week said the CFS knew local brigades could not cope with a fire at the abattoir, but ignored official warnings.
What does he define as local brigades? Does this mean they will scream KI couldn't deal with it's risk. take the paint fire on south road i know MFS "local" brigades weren't the only ones there. every brigade/ station in the state has some part of risk in their primary area that they can't deal with on their own.
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Before you start slinging scheiße Bill,remember who comes to man your stations when you are under resourced, thats right the CFS have the resources to man all your stations and then some. :-P
What would you do without us eh :evil:
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but responding a couple of MFS pumps wasn't gonna save it ?
No it wouldnt have considering the time it would have taken them to get there.
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The UFU need to be very careful, we could all tell stories about when incidents have problems. Lets work together to fix the problem before running to the teacher and telling.
I remember a shopping complex a few years ago that got out of control due to a major stuff up from a fire service person. Lets see the UFU talk about this then.
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But if CFS had the same standard of equipment as MFS,
Ah yes but we do. We got a list of things carried on a standard MFS pump and the only thing we didnt have was a thermal imaging camera.
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All fires tend to be major cockups. Both volunteer and paid fire services are notoriously terrible at larger and more complex incidents.
As long as correct procedure was followed, there shouldn't be an issue. If the CFS did wait around for Burnside, without turning out closer resources, then that is an issue that needs to be looked at. People don't see a fire service, they still see MFS/CFS/Regions/Groups/Brigades and the apparent boundaries between them.
Ah yes but we do. We got a list of things carried on a standard MFS pump and the only thing we didnt have was a thermal imaging camera.
Go find me two CFS pumps that are stowed remotely close to an MFS pump and I'll believe you.
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I dont think Bill has got long to go before he retires
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One thing i am concerned about from that article is the fact that the UFU think they should have responded MFS to the ammonia leak rather than Burnside. It would seem the UFU are going around in circles - wasn't there an article on the UFU website not long ago saying they are short staffed to look after Adelaide yet they wanted to send trucks to Port Wakefield? Bit hypocritical dont you think?
Another thing business's need to realise is, if they plan to build in the sticks then they cant expect to be looked after by a fully staffed 24/7 fire station with million dollar equipment. Its just not justifiable!
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I agree with numbers, Every fire that ive been too , or been in charge of, when looked at in the clear light of day we could have of done better at.
Incident debriefs are not intended to be "blame games" they are a way of bettering ourselves ,identifying problems and putting measures in place so that we dont repeat the mistakes, "lessons learned".
CFS might need to revisit ,some of there procedures as would MFS occasionaly, this is best done in a private and not played out in the media ,once Pandoras box is opened its very hard to shut, UFU be careful no one is without fault!!!!
Cheers Jaff
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But if CFS had the same standard of equipment as MFS,
Ah yes but we do. We got a list of things carried on a standard MFS pump and the only thing we didnt have was a thermal imaging camera.
I think the original quote was more directed at the actual appliances them selves..
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Before we all get carried away , was there a long delay before more specialised appliances were called from further away?? I heard that the initial few appliances there had a severe shortage of BA qualified people. Any truth to that.
1909205 20:50:22 23-02-07 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 SHQ: *CFSRES: PT WAKEFIELD & BALAKLAVA RESPOND BUILDING FIRE, PRIMO - SNOWTOWN RD, PT WAKEFIELD. FIRE IN THE OFFAL ROOM... < 23/02/2007 20:49:43 -= CFS Balaklava response =-
1908995 00:08:14 24-02-07 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 SHQ: CFSRES BURNSIDE RESPOND BUIDLING FIRE, SNOWTOWN RD, PT WAKEFIELD, PRIMO MEAT WORKS, MONITORING EQUIPMENT REQUIRED, P2 > 24/02/2007 12:07:34 AM -= CFS Burnside response =-
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considering they were responded priority 2 and over 12 hrs after the initial....
im guessing the "specialist equipment" wasnt really gonna make much differance to the overall outcome.
an interesting read none the less....
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more like 3 hours
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more like 3 hours
mmm yer i just re-read that....
shouldnt that be in 24hr time? the first response is in 24hr time...
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just noticed the pages came from differant computers... might explain it, im guessing one wasnt set on 24hr
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just noticed the pages came from differant computers... might explain it, im guessing one wasnt set on 24hr
it is 00:08:14, 8 mins past midnight
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I dont think Bill has got long to go before he retires
Probably his life long dream to close the CFS, and is running out of time?
Must have been a very slow day in the office to put his article together, or there was nothing on Fox? :-D
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just noticed the pages came from differant computers... might explain it, im guessing one wasnt set on 24hr
it is 00:08:14, 8 mins past midnight
im talking about the date/time stamp in the pager itself, thats what i was reading.
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The article needs to be read in conjunction with the UFU submission to the F&ES review. Remember the bits about separate identities, look after the vollies etc?
Welcome to SA Fire & Rescue Service!
Guys this is not an attack on the crews, its an attack on the management team, SAFECOM & indirectly the minister. This is because they can see the beginnings of an intergrated tri service, rather than the one all encompassing service they were hoping for! What they want is to do it all (except for the stuff that takes lots of man power & time)And with CFS doing rural fire fighting & SES doing storm & flood non glory work, SAF&RS members will be UFU, the power of the union increases & the vollie associations decreases. Once the volunteers are subdued then they will start on the retained crews trying to justify full timers in their positions. Why? - easy more full time members, means more union dues (the union has more money to play with) and everyones happy!
Well done UFU going public with something that should have been kept internal, but remember the next time that your members have a job that goes sour - the media will remember your comments & so will the property owners - I don't think they will be saying "oh well you did your best".
Interestingly SAFECOM spoke for both service chiefs - more intergration?
Anyway enough of my rant :-D
cheers
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Well all I can say is the UFU should get back in it's box, The Wakefield Plains group were commended on how the incident was run, there was ample resources Hazmat was Pt Wakefield, Nuriootpa, Dalkeith & of course Burnside (the ones I can recall)as for BA It seemed as though the whole region was there, the only problem I'm aware of was that the sole remaining BA brigade in wakefield plains grp who weren't responded were on standby for any other incidents that may have cropped up in the area due to all other BA brigades within the area were at Pt Wakefield weren't actually told that they were on standby how ever this was addressed internally by the group simple case is MFS obviously wasn't required other wise they would have been called.
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Dont Know how the UFU can say there where hazmat crews close by as if they where called on,the MFS would have to call CFS to MANN mfs city stations...I think the UFU are trying to stir the pot and have ago at anyone...From what I have read and seen and those i have spoken to the brigade and group did a great job if there is this so called cover up then why has the MFS and CFS chief not spoken up and why is it that UFU have taken this action?? may be the UFU is trying to push for more staff for new stations so they attack anyone...So UFU you know what you can do .......
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Similarly qualified MFS crews were stationed much closer – at Salisbury, Elizabeth, Angle Vale, Prospect and Port Adelaide – but were not called, the union claims.
Didnt know there was a MFS station at Angle Vale.
What gets me is why wait a whole year if it was such an important issue?
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Well an elections not close - have a feeling things are happening at SAFECOM & the UFU has got hold of it :wink:
There has been a few comings and goings at SAFECOM HQ and hardly a word out of ours.
Otherwise it doesn't make sense, unless there are union elections due? :-D
cheers
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Interesting that the union forget to mention the close by MFS country stations too. Like Kadina etc. Who are a lot closer than Prospect...
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Interesting that the union forget to mention the close by MFS country stations too. Like Kadina etc. Who are a lot closer than Prospect...
You know the union think of the retained stations like CFS, not much.
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Yep your right there!
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They are happy to take the union dues from retained firies though. Funny that.
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Interesting that the union forget to mention the close by MFS country stations too. Like Kadina etc. Who are a lot closer than Prospect...
Not to mention Kapunda & Tanunda
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Similarly qualified MFS crews were stationed much closer – at Salisbury, Elizabeth, Angle Vale, Prospect and Port Adelaide – but were not called, the union claims.
Didnt know there was a MFS station at Angle Vale.
What gets me is why wait a whole year if it was such an important issue?
Well Dalkeith went (oh hang on they would be CFS Buggar) :lol:
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Time the VFBA stepped in and said something....
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The VFBA,who are they?
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Time the VFBA stepped in and said something....
Right :roll: :wink: :-D
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So i wounder when was the last time some of those who work in the UFU office where ever at a fire??? or where they ever firefighters..... who are the VFBA well they are still out there working some where may be they have not got onto this issue yet......
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Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
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who are the VFBA well they are still out there working some where may be they have not got onto this issue yet......
I think you'll find its the CFSVA that are out there somewhere, not the VFBA...
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Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
So is that why he's got it in for your lot then?
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Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
I may be taking this out of context - but with the exception of a union organisations General Secretary and possibly Industrial Officer - aren't the executive of any union required to be current "operational" (sic) staff?
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Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
So is that why he's got it in for your lot then?
Not there anymore, but he has been hanging s*$t on the whole Noarlunga/Mawson group since the i started CFS back in 1993. Maybe he's just shitty because he didn't make it as far up the ranks as a relative of his did. :-o
Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
I may be taking this out of context - but with the exception of a union organisations General Secretary and possibly Industrial Officer - aren't the executive of any union required to be current "operational" (sic) staff?
He maybe still operational??? fairly sure he's not at CD anymore. Good point though.
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Bill Jamieson the president of the ufu was an ex SO at Christies.
Also long term councillor for Onkaparinga Council
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Bill is still operational, he is a District Officer now, you can hear him respond as the safety officer sometimes.
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He is still operational, and hasnt been at Christies for quite a while.However he certainly has been using the media to their advantage :roll:
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Moderators will be watching threads like this closely - DO NOT allow yourself to get close to the line when it comes to things like slander etc.....
Remember you can be held personally responsible for what you say.
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How ironic is it to say "MFS Country Station's"...Metro..Country...ehh...METRY??
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How ironic is it to say "MFS Country Station's"...Metro..Country...ehh...METRY??
Yup, Don't make sence does it, particularly when most country towns with both MFS & CFS, out of the 2 CFS usually does more jobs
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How ironic is it to say "MFS Country Station's"...Metro..Country...ehh...METRY??
Yeah or how ironic is this....Country..Metro..what the? Countros!!!
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Sorry my bad, the MFS call them regional stations now.
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The article needs to be read in conjunction with the UFU submission to the F&ES review. intergrated tri service, rather than the one all encompassing service they were hoping for! What they want is to do it all (except for the stuff that takes lots of man power & time)And with CFS doing rural fire fighting & SES doing storm & flood non glory work, SAF&RS members will be UFU, the power of the union increases & the vollie associations decreases. Once the volunteers are subdued then they will start on the retained crews trying to justify full timers in their positions. Why? - easy more full time members, means more union dues (the union has more money to play with) and everyones happy!
Well done UFU going public with something that should have been kept internal, but remember the next time that your members have a job that goes sour - the media will remember your comments & so will the property owners - I don't think they will be saying "oh well you did your best".
Interestingly SAFECOM spoke for both service chiefs - more intergration?
Anyway enough of my rant :-D
cheers
Some good points in there chook, but further to that.
Knowing full well that the minister does have someone read these posts, and orders ministerial's at the drop of a hat, we have a current state government full of former UFU members and officials, which is slowly but surely using its political leverage to its advantage Minister Zollo take note there are more than ample SACFS volunteers in marginal electoral areas who don't like lip treatment and are swinging voters (yes some of us know how the political game is played). My opinion only is that the CFSVA is weak on issues such as these. CFSVA representative members: these are the issues that get up the nose of your members! yet we hear diddly squat from you in the media supporting us and defending us, yes occasionally we may hear you on ABC891, but we want more than that, we've also yet to hear anything supportive from SAFECOM, SAMFS, SACFS or CFSVA WHERE IS OUR SUPPORT ? and yes Chook I also agree with good on the UFU, they are there to represent their members and are doing a great job at it, maybe the CFSVA can take a leaf from their book and play the same game. SACFS members are sick of having the boot put into them constantly in the media without even a murmur of response or support!
Further question then is the CFSVA hampered in its actions and response's due to where its funding and sourcing comes from?
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How ironic is it to say "MFS Country Station's"...Metro..Country...ehh...METRY??
Yeah or how ironic is this....Country..Metro..what the? Countros!!!
So the head of that station would they be called the Fat cont fat cont fat cont fat controller ask's Big Yellowgongbeater who stutters at the most inappropriate time. :-D
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Sorry my bad, the MFS call them regional stations now.
Not according to their website :-P
http://www.samfs.sa.gov.au/about/firestationsCountry.asp
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That website is terribly out of date, some of the appliance photos are Hinos and F350`s still. Has been known as regional operations since 2005. That what it says on the stationery now as well as their name badges.
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Well done Big Yellow Gongbeater,a lot of people agree with what your saying.
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Big Yellowgongbeater - mate totally agree, been looking for a response from your association and you know the answer already!
It is a pity that the politicians, the UFU, the associations(yes both of them)& the public either don't understand or choose not to understand that:-
a) we live in a large state.
b) we have a small population.
c) we are geographically dispersed but with the majority living in the south/ southeastern corner.
d) emergency response costs money (lots of it!) whether using payed staff or free labour :-D
e) the current situation is not sustainable into the future!
f) And finally the vollies are getting tired of all of this crap!
The community is far more reliant on a strong Emergency Service sector, than it has in the past (don't see too many civilians out there with wet wetbags beating fires back or building levees).
And the risks are increasing not decreasing - so instead of people worrying about there own little world, start looking at the big picture!
And you can't provide an effective Emergency response across the entire state with payed staff alone, so by continually attacking the volunteers, making their lives harder, putting more hurdles in the way is just driving potential vollies away. So for those who read this & are not the men & woman out on the ground doing the actual response work (I include the front line troops from CFS, SAMFS & SES)you have to stop this rubbish & start looking after your front line troops or one day you won't have any left! And one day UFU that little statement on the weekend will come back to bite you :wink:
Here is a final thought, why not transfer ESO's including ambulance to the Feds? :wink:
Only joking
cheers
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Ah yes our association not one word in response.Maybe its because the government are giving them some money,is why they dont want to bite the hand that feeds it. :wink:
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You won't hear a thing in protest while the two groups are collaborating.......Many issues are being addressed cooperatively.
You can't really have a public spat with a Union you are working with on certain issues :roll:
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Do you suggest there is some horse trading going on? :-D
Look out firies I feel something bad going on :wink:
Or is it us who should look out?
cheers
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if you read the papers, theres a number of other issues that the UFU, CFSVA (or whatever there called now) and SASESVA are working on together, including the change of speed limit past stationary emergency services...
i guess they need to try to keep some cooperation happening, rather than going down each others throats completely at the moment...
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chook, correct 10 points for you!
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The VFBA or what ever they are called these days will never do anything decent because they are funded by the CFS and will not bight the hand that feeds them.
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would it be a viable option for the CFSVA to become somewhat independent. Funded by the Volunteers/Community to support us Volunteers. Essentially becoming a Volunteer Service Union.
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I'd be more than happy to pay a chunk of cash to an independent body that was going to hold the CFS accountable on everything, from SOP's and CRD, to PPW and Appliances.
Then we might actually see some progress.
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Bring it on!
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I'd be more than happy to pay a chunk of cash to an independent body that was going to hold the CFS accountable on everything, from SOP's and CRD, to PPW and Appliances.
Then we might actually see some progress.
CRD? Dont the MFS do that?
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CRD? Dont the MFS do that?
Yes, but there is a lot of work that can be done and needs to be done by CFS in terms of ALERTS, response planning, and supplying the correct information to SAMFS so that responses are done correctly.