SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Cameron Yelland on February 23, 2008, 04:47:19 PM
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Gday,
Is anyone in the know as to whether members can do an absentee vote at brigade elections or must be present.
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it would depend on you constitution i guess I know in out brigade you need to be present to vote or be voted in
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Generally speaking absentee voting is not permitted. See Heysen CFS Group a few years ago an absentee vote was made which directly affected the result. Was deemed to be unconstitional or something and the vote not counted so result was altered.
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Would definately check your constitution because it should be written in there as to wether you allow absentee votes or not. If it is written in that they are allowed then that has to be followed, if nothing is in there about it then I very much doubt it could be done
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Find out what your brigade constitution says!
If, like us, you're unaware of any such document in existance for your specific brigade (ie if it did exist, it disappeared in a training exercise shortly before the dark ages), then use the one in the act.
I'm not entirely up to speed on the legalities of such matters, but it is my understanding that a copy of the constitution needs to be in evidence to operate under it.
So, if an alternate one doesn't exist or can't be found, check through the act but I think all brigades, unless otherwise known, adopt the generic constitution. It would be worth, at the AGM, either formally adopting the generic constitution, or acknowledging that's what your operating under if the act dictates that you must.
And I'm afraid, after all that waffle, I can't be bothered checking through the act to see what it says!
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i checked the generic constitution in the act but could not find anything about it. oh well probaly safer to say no not allowed.
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You would need to put a motion forward before your your next AGM and get the ruling in and evan then you will still have to wait for those up the ladder to approve....Check your brigade and group constantution and see what it says.....
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I would suggest that this statement in the Regulations suggests that you must be present at the meeting to vote.
11—Brigade elections
(10) Each member of the brigade attending the meeting at which the elections are held is entitled to vote at the elections.
In cases like this, the Regulations override the brigade constitution.
I'd check with your Region's VSO to clarify this well before the meeting, so everyone is clear and there can't be any allegations of bias due to withholding information...
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LOLOLO we dont have a VSO...........
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At one of our elections we voted a member in as an equipment officer and senior FF in their abscence. They had expressed interest in the jobs before the meeting, and on the night the member was called up on the phone, confirmed their interest, and everybody voted on it.
I personally think that if a majority agree and vote on something then it is in essence 'constitutional' because the majority agreed at the vote. I don't believe that a piece of paper and written 'rules' should always be taken so literally. If everybody is happy then what's the problem. - Don't know if that helps you though. :?
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Nothing wrong with voting people into a position, as long as they accept the nomination, in their absence. The issue is with those who are absent calling in votes.
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I'm fairly sure there is nothing wrong with voting someone into a position who is not present at the meeting, the problem is more to do with having votes counted from people who are not there
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As long as that member wants the position then you can voted them into it..
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Gday,
Is anyone in the know as to whether members can do an absentee vote at brigade elections or must be present.
Simple - read the regulations part 11 as copied below.
(10) Each member of the brigade attending the meeting at which the elections are held is entitled to vote at the elections.
If a brigade has anything else in its constitution which is contrary to this paragraph, the regulations would take precedence as a brigade constitution must not contravene the Act and Regulations. In short, proxy votes are out!
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This is one of the rules in the act I believe should be changed to allow for absentee voting. If for some reason you are ill or called into work you do not get any say in who your officers will be, and as they will be in charge of all people I strongly believe everyone should be given every opportunity to vote.
With only one or two peaople not being present this may not alter the end result but six votes may!
Exactly how it can be done would require investigation and maybe even a change to the voting system completly.
What are other peoples thoughts on this, or is everyone happy with the current set up.
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Yeah i read that line but it didnt really state that members couldnt absentee vote...sort of leaves it up to interpretation.
Yeah i agree....lets go with the american election system.....4 year terms? and only allowed to serve 2 terms. Election campaigns that travel around the brigades district. Knock on peoples doors explaining your promises for the next 4 years, kiss a few babies, bob's your uncle. :-D
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How would absentee voting work if on the night of the election someone put their hand up at the last minute to stand for that position,it does happen both at brigade and group level.I can see absentee voting working but we would need to know who is going to stand for all positions well before the meet...As for terms in office if they are doing good job and are willing to stay on then keep voting them in till they no longer want to do it or till someone else says I would like to have ago...
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The solution to the last minute nomination would to have nominations closed and accepted/rejected a week before the date of the meeting. But then its getting far more complicated than it should be.
As far as the fixed terms go. They are great if you have idiots in control, they are terrible if you have the diamond in the rough in control.
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There is a suggestion to change the rules to allow for absentee voting. Before we worry about a minor detail like that, let's look at changing the regulations so that brigade officers can only be elected on competence and experience, and not on popularity, including whether or not they buy drinks after training.
That way, we might get a lot less stuffups on the fireground caused by incompetent officers. Their incompetence might not necessarily be their fault, but the fault should always lie with those who voted them in.
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Training and experience are good but without leadership skills they are nothing!
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On the weekend during one of the breaks it was noted that there isn't a career path for to becoming a UM.
This is true -I explained to the group that a) there is a PD for managers & the reality is that most (including myself) don't meet all of the criteria. b) that you don't need to be a top class rescuer to manage a Unit, but Leadership, Accounting, Emergency Management, HR skills & Resource Management skills would be required. That c) Some units like the way its currently done & that elections would open a can of worms. There was general agreement to this by members of the group who had never been involved with CFS, however those that had disagreed!
Those of you who have done the Brukunga Leadership course would know that Managers manage things, whereas Leaders lead people & are very transient in nature.
So I guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit on, for example we are currently looking for a new UM, the problem we have is that there is only one person in the unit that has put there hand up & even he admits that he isn't the best person for the job. However there are others within the area, who would excel in the position & have extensive Emergency Service experience (but not recently with SES)& others who have brilliant management skills.
If we had elections those individuals would not be considered!
And how would I choose? thankfully I won't have to :wink:
I agree that change sometimes is required & that democracy is important, however if every year its just a popularity contest or worse some one just gets the "guilt trip" put on them & they get voted in How are things going to change?
Maybe the local community should select & vote instead?
Anyway it seems the common thread is competence, leadership & experience & not deep pockets :-D
cheers
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Maybe the local community should select & vote instead?
The topic of elected vs appointed always seems to create discussion.......
But, I think if the position requires the incumbent to run an incident / make operational decisions, then allowing the community to select that person, is a dangerous & very scary thing to do.
On the other hand, if the position was only an Administrator type position, with no operational input, it might not be so bad.....
Pip
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hey all ,
just a question does any one know the ruling on postal vote for the elections is??
are they accepted or is it you dont attend you dont vote??
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you have to be in attendence to be able to vote.
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hey all ,
just a question does any one know the ruling on postal vote for the elections is??
are they accepted or is it you dont attend you dont vote?
Generally cannot be done , if you arent there you cant vote. See first post on this topic.
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May be its time to change how we vote so that if your not there that you can do a postal vote but that would mean that all those standing for a position would have to be up on the board one week before the election....We also need to enforce the rule that you just can not turn up at the AGM vote and your brigade does not see you till next year.....
All the best to those that are standing at elections this week.......
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We also need to enforce the rule that you just can not turn up at the AGM vote and your brigade does not see you till next year.....
You're right Bill...but it is in the hands of the brigade itself....clean up your membership lists....
Each year, around AGM time, we send a letter to every member of the brigade, asking them tho state their intentions for the upcoming year -
eg stay as a fire-fighter,
those who are fire-fighters, but we haven't seen for some time but still want to be a member, and intend to return can be swapped to Operational support
or for any category of membership, the other choice is to leave (with the option of returning some time down the track, should their circumstances change) - but they are no longer sitting on our books, doing nothing!
If someone was a firefighter, and changes to an operational support, and has not attended for 12 months, and we are unlikely to see them again, we take them off the books (following the proper channels of course)
However, we ensure that we send a letter, asking people intentions, to every member of the brigade - no favourites, no specific targetting of individuals - everyone is treated in the same way.
The concept was well received within my brigade.
Pip
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We also need to enforce the rule that you just can not turn up at the AGM vote and your brigade does not see you till next year.....
You're right Bill...but it is in the hands of the brigade itself....clean up your membership lists....
Each year, around AGM time, we send a letter to every member of the brigade, asking them tho state their intentions for the upcoming year -
eg stay as a fire-fighter,
those who are fire-fighters, but we haven't seen for some time but still want to be a member, and intend to return can be swapped to Operational support
or for any category of membership, the other choice is to leave (with the option of returning some time down the track, should their circumstances change) - but they are no longer sitting on our books, doing nothing!
If someone was a firefighter, and changes to an operational support, and has not attended for 12 months, and we are unlikely to see them again, we take them off the books (following the proper channels of course)
However, we ensure that we send a letter, asking people intentions, to every member of the brigade - no favourites, no specific targetting of individuals - everyone is treated in the same way.
The concept was well received within my brigade.
Pip
But if they say they still want to be a member you cant remove them from the list.
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We also need to enforce the rule that you just can not turn up at the AGM vote and your brigade does not see you till next year.....
You're right Bill...but it is in the hands of the brigade itself....clean up your membership lists....
Each year, around AGM time, we send a letter to every member of the brigade, asking them tho state their intentions for the upcoming year -
eg stay as a fire-fighter,
those who are fire-fighters, but we haven't seen for some time but still want to be a member, and intend to return can be swapped to Operational support
or for any category of membership, the other choice is to leave (with the option of returning some time down the track, should their circumstances change) - but they are no longer sitting on our books, doing nothing!
If someone was a firefighter, and changes to an operational support, and has not attended for 12 months, and we are unlikely to see them again, we take them off the books (following the proper channels of course)
However, we ensure that we send a letter, asking people intentions, to every member of the brigade - no favourites, no specific targetting of individuals - everyone is treated in the same way.
The concept was well received within my brigade.
Pip
But if they say they still want to be a member you cant remove them from the list.
If they are not attending any training as per the regulations at least 8 times a year they are not complying with the membership rules.Seriously if you have'nt got the commitment then dont hold up a spot for someone who is.
There are many brigades who have waiting lists of people who want to actively contribute to their brigade and community :evil:
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You can remove a person from your membership list for non attendance - but you do need to follow a procedure for it....
Having clear & unambiguous rules makes it easier to remove people down the track.
Having a yearly letter, asking people their intentions, and setting out what each category means, and what is expected from members, means 12 months later, you haven't seen them at all, you can remove them!!
This makes it a very transperant process, that everyone is aware of, and you cannot be accused of being sneaky etc if you do take someone off your list for non-attendance...
Pip
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We were told recently by a regional staff member that if they dont attend the next 3 meetings after the letter has been sent then they could be removed.
So if they continue to turn up to the meetings you cant delist them?
I couldnt see anything in the rules that stated attending 8 trainings a year. Maybe thats your brigade constitution?
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If they keep turning up, it makes it harder to remove a person...you would then only have grounds to remove them if their behaviour was such that it bought CFS into disrepute.
As for the attendance at meetings , it was in the old CFS Act, and I presume carried over to the new SAFECOM Act - that a member must attend a minimum number of meetings each year - the old Act was 12.......
I'd suggest if this was strictly applied, then half of the members of CFS would no longer be members!!! :evil:
Anyway, it is up to the brigade to enforce this sort of rule....but you do need to be careful - applying it to one "problem child" in the brigade, but not applying it to others is not a good look!!
Pip
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Just been having a look at the Act & Regulations.......
Under Subdivision 5, Section 24, of Regulations, it states :
(6) If a member of an SACFS organisation, without reasonable excuse, fails to attend 3 or more consecutive monthly meetings of the organisation without leave of absence, the organisation may cancel his or her membership.
So you can remove someone for non- attendance in a relatively short period of time...BUT it goes on to say
(7) Before taking action under subregulation (6), the SACFS organisation must give the person a reasonable opportunity to make submissions in relation to the proposed course of action.
So it looks like the requirement to attend 12 meetings a year has either been removed, or exists within the standard constitution of brigades...
But the Act makes it clear you can remove people who don't attend, but only after they have been given an opportunity to make a submission as to why they haven't attended..... but the regs don't define what occurs next...!!
Pip
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Pip
I have half an idea the old rule (in the Regs) was to attend >50% of meetings &
scheduled training so as not to penalise brigades who meet monthly or quarterly.
Question - what is this "Operational Support" thing of which you speak.
We tried to create a non-voting class of membership a few years ago in our
constitution, but it was rejected by the Regional Commander. Said there is no room in the Act/Regs for such as membership classification. Told us to clean
up our books by requiring attendance or removing non-attenders.
The Regs give the circumstances & permission for involuntary de-listing.
The Admin Manual explains (now) how to do it, including sample "tell us your
intentions" and "show cause" letters.
Funnily enough, while you can sack a member, you can't move them to a different
class of membership without their signed agreement.
cheers
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Operational support is very similar to Auxillary, or at least thats what i know of that role....its essentially a non-operational firefighter.
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Question - what is this "Operational Support" thing of which you speak.
We tried to create a non-voting class of membership a few years ago in our
constitution, but it was rejected by the Regional Commander. Said there is no room in the Act/Regs for such as membership classification.
don't think it's to do with voting as auxiliary members can vote too. In my brigade we included another category of "active auxiliary". Auxiliary are the traditional womens auxiliary members that do the catering, operate radio, clean station etc but do not touch the trucks or equipment. Active auxiliary is intended for operational members getting older or suffering an illness and wishing to continue but in a reduced capacity. These people can maintain equipment (eg. chainsaws, hoses etc), restow/clean appliances upon return from a job, take them for refueling etc. It's about keeping valued members with many years experience, and/or specific skills, on in the brigade when they are no longer able (or no longer wish to) ride the truck.
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If they keep turning up, it makes it harder to remove a person...you would then only have grounds to remove them if their behaviour was such that it bought CFS into disrepute.
Tried that, doesnt work :x
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Operation Support is the new name for Auxiliary member, (Under the new act).
Officers were renamed coordinators, and auxiliary were renamed operational support :)
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I hope we aren't turning into the UK, most brigades have ditched Station Officer for Watch Manager for fulltime stations and Crew Manager for retained, so instead of "From Station Officer Smith stop for call" its "from Watch Manager Smith stop for call"
I won't be saying "from Crew Co-Ordinator"
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Pumprescue, Hear Hear.
Officers were renamed coordinators, and auxiliary were renamed operational support
i think not!...the new act sounds wank.
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Sorry, I should clarify its the admin officers that are now coords, eg Comms, Training, Equipment, Logistics etc - not the lieutenants and captain. They are still officers. I think Seniors are also now classed as officers.
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ah thanks mel, nearly suffocated there...
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Under the New Act, there are three categories of membership - firefighter, Operational Support & honoury member.
The Firefighter is self explanatory.
Operational Support is what we used to call (at least, in recent times) auxiliary. They are people who are generally active within the brigade in some form - eg comms, catering, Admin etc, but not firefighters.
Honoury members are generally aimed at members who have perhaps been in CFS for some time, but are no longer suitable for active duties, but still want to remain a part of the organisation.
Firefighters & Op support members are entitled to vote at brigade elections. Honoury members have no voting rights.
Pip
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I like the idea of the letters, sending a page out is only good if everyone has their pagers turned on (they might be off due to sickness work committements so therefore will not get that page) sending a text message (well I wont even go there as I have a real problem with work dealing with things via text messages - pick up the damn phone or send a letter)