SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Cameron Yelland on August 09, 2008, 01:07:05 PM
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Gday,
What do you see happening in the CFS in the future as far as the structure goes?
What would people think if we were to remove groups from the CFS? good idea or a bad idea?
Each brigade receives funding they require rather than groups dishing the money out to brigades.
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Groups are valuable in terms of administration, but the response lines between groups need to go.
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Supposedly SACAD does that for us...except for Strike Teams Personally wouldnt mind working in a strike team of 4 brigades that arent in my own group...just need a suitably nominated strike team leader. wouldnt it be nice to form better relationships with out-of-group brigades ;)
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SACAD will choose the closest resource when it comes online,but brigades also need to understand that many hands make light work, so the quicker you respond resources the quicker you all go home. :wink:
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Damm Straight! definately! :-)
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The CFS needs to reasses its core business and perhaps try to look at the service in thirds? Rural/Urban/Rescue?
This would allow brigades to have people within the CFS that understand their exact needs. No more of this square peg, round hole mentality.
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The CFS needs to reasses its core business and perhaps try to look at the service in thirds? Rural/Urban/Rescue?
This would allow brigades to have people within the CFS that understand their exact needs. No more of this square peg, round hole mentality.
Wasnt the CFS looking at introducing differant types [levels of training/accreditation] of firefighter? what ever happened to that??
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SACAD is still about 3 years away if it gets of the ground....I think sooner or later we will become one body called SAFES, We will still have our group system but i do see a need for brigade's to be able to select which supplier they wish to buy from and that way its a better system for all. I would like to see the introduction of pumpers fully not part time pumpers to some urban areas both in the city and country. I would like to see stations that have staff and volunteers its something we should try and CFS and MFS could have done it at SEAFORD but that is another story....We should be looking interstate when it comes to how they work with stations that have staff and volunteers and in many cases we should also look at BASO(brigade admin support officer) for our busy stations/ group's.....
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when did you hear 3 years bill?
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What would people think if we were to remove groups from the CFS? good idea or a bad idea?
Each brigade receives funding they require rather than groups dishing the money out to brigades.
Bad idea. SAFECOM can't manage the accounts for 40-something groups in a timely
fashion, let alone 430 individual brigades. As it stands, they are typically 2
months behind in account statements rendered to Groups.
Note that I have not mentioned accuracy of account manag... Oh bother... I mentioned it.
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There was a meeting down here during the week and those that where there( I was not) where informned its still 3 year's away fully and that is if it gets of the grounds as there are still issue's....
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There was a meeting down here during the week and those that where there( I was not) where informned its still 3 year's away fully and that is if it gets of the grounds as there are still issue's....
Not sure where you got that info bill? I was at that meeting and no dates were mentioned as to the completion or start. The only info we were given about some sort of start was the first contracts were going to be signed in September i believe.
According to the last budget their was a completion date of 2011.
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Cam,my info came from two people who where there so if they got it wrong well that is their mistake.....so will wait and see when its up and running....They did tell those there why it take's SAAS so long to page a fire service and if that is correct then thats crap....
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Cam,my info came from two people who where there so if they got it wrong well that is their mistake.....so will wait and see when its up and running....They did tell those there why it take's SAAS so long to page a fire service and if that is correct then thats crap....
Basically they wont page anyone else until they have finished their questionaire they have to ask, which can take between 5 and 15 mins apparently.
So if you want a timely response call the police or fire first because there is less of a delay getting all services there instead of just one!
As far as the CAD info goes i might of been asleep but i dont remember hearing any timelines mentioned, unless they spoke to someone after the meeting. One thing mentioned was the fact that SAAS & SAPOL? will come online with CAD first before the fire services are brought in.
Also there was something mentioned about an application for funding for MCT's for all CFS appliances. Would be good if that gets funded but i wouldnt be holding my breath.
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Our group were given the same speach from SAAS that calling others for RCR etc is only low priority and they get to it when higher priority calls are dealt with.
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Couple of interesting points
1) only talk of the fire services - again we might actually adopt the Victorian ?NSW system into the future (Volly fire service does not do rescue except for unique circumstances.
2)Had a talk to a full time SAAS guy (who is also one of our lot) & he has made numerous complaints to SAAS management & comms about not despatching or the incorrect despatching of resources - didn't get anywhere.
3) What you are talking about is already how SESSA operates - State HQ gives the budgets direct to units, however Regions are now trying to get control of that.
4) Not sure if SACAD will make that big a difference to funding, yes brigades that are close to each other but have a differnt level of callouts would be different but other brigades would still need maintenance funding.
5) MDT's? You guys really know how to spend money don't you? Surely they would only be required for semi metro brigades?
cheers
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i think the situation with MCT's would be only two:
1. brigades that respond to MFS area.
2. All brigades entirely.
I wouldnt say no to MCT's :D Would make things run much more smoothly...smooth like a polished surf board...until the MCT fails on you :evil:
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Yeah we have better things to spend our dough on.
I thought the NSW system was seen as quite over resourcing since there is a NSWFB and NSWRFS appliance in each station.
Personally I say that system would suck as vollies can do rescue, urban fire fighting, hazmat etc (but we do have issues about who does it)
Although i don't really like CFS chain of command for the admin side of the service I think it would probably cost more if we scrapped it and just wen to HQ.
Due to more and more crewing problems for outer metro fringe brigades i think it might be worth investing in training more brigades in things like. RCR and some form of slimmed down hazmat that puts less of a requirement on theses brigades to fully crew/run jobs.
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There is something weird happening at the top of the respective trees.
Here is the future as I see it-
SES will become more involved in disaster planning (high level)
SES Rural units will be merged with CFS rural units
SAMFS Retained stations will be converted to CFS stations in low population areas, with the bigger ones becoming part full time/part retained.
Urban fringe brigades will become SAMFS - Starting with the ones that have crewing issues now.
SES will become more specialised in Metro areas (USAR, Vertical) & other niche area (sea rescue).
If you think I'm being paranoid think about this:- no new funding for vehicles, no new staff positions, no increase in budget (in fact a decrease in real terms).
Now have a look at your respective services - any weird stuff happening?
Like SAMFS senior staff suddenly taking a big interest in a retained station that they were not interested in before?
Lots of dollars being plowed into CFS but for rural fire fighting only ($15 mil +)
And in the NSW & Vic systems the vollies do do rescue just they don't belong to the fire services :wink:
The future described above may not fully happen but there are some strange alliances being formed as I speak.
Personally I think it will be a real pity to effectively loose a service in most areas of the state, which is what will happen as the rural brigades are struggling to keep up with the current level of training let alone adding more!
Anyway I guess time will tell.
cheers
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SES will become more involved in disaster planning (high level)
Maybe this is where SES becomes known as the SA USAR squad?
SES Rural units will be merged with CFS rural units
Probably a good move, utilising the people from both services in the same local area to do both jobs (if they wish to)
SAMFS Retained stations will be converted to CFS stations in low population areas, with the bigger ones becoming part full time/part retained.
The old mining belt/yorke peninsula in the mid north is a good example where this would happen.
Murray Bridge would be the "next mt gambier". In terms of Full time weekday crewing of a single appliance.
Urban fringe brigades will become SAMFS - Starting with the ones that have crewing issues now.
I think Some, not all. Eg. Mt Barker, Seaford. Another station in the South between OHalloran, Christies and the hills would release the pressure down there.
The CFS definately needs to remain in the Urban Fringe as 4WD firefighting happens all too often even with structural incidents. Theres a heck a lot of spots where 2WD MFS pumpers wont get to.
SES will become more specialised in Metro areas (USAR, Vertical) & other niche area (sea rescue).
I agree with that.
Lots of dollars being plowed into CFS but for rural fire fighting only
More structural fire training definately required.
Like your thinking Chook :wink:
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Not to mention the fire service being primary rescue statewide eventually.
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Not my thinking Zippy - its just starting to look that way!
Problem is with the smaller rural brigades taking on everything, the lack of raw numbers & the time commitments for the training required will kill brigades not improve them. Also will "short cuts" in training occur just so brigades can do the role? (As claimed by some with BA training).
And some people won't want to do the fire side of things - so you won't get them to join if BFF1 is the base requirement!
And other just don't want to be associated with CFS (sorry but some of us have seen how your system works & think its a crock), thats why they join us (sorry SES).
And finally it has not worked in WA or QLD why would it work here?
As I said there is weird stuff happening & if I was a member of CFS, I wouldn't be crowing as some real big compromises would be happening to make this come off.
cheers
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MCT MCT MCT MCT MCT
MCT? MDT!
I thought the NSW system was seen as quite over resourcing since there is a NSWFB and NSWRFS appliance in each station.
Personally I say that system would suck as vollies can do rescue, urban fire fighting, hazmat etc (but we do have issues about who does it)
Due to more and more crewing problems for outer metro fringe brigades i think it might be worth investing in training more brigades in things like. RCR and some form of slimmed down hazmat that puts less of a requirement on theses brigades to fully crew/run jobs.
NSWRFS and NSWFB in the same station? I'd check your facts, as I think their union would explode if that happened. In many places they are both in the same town, but the division of labour works well.
It would be great to see other people in other brigades trained up in different disciplines, yet many of those crewing issues also stem from the fact that the specialist brigade CAN'T get members on courses. In my opinion, until you have the specialist brigades trained, you shouldn't be going elsewhere. That also creates the issue of skill maintenance, with people unable to keep their skills at the required level.
Don't get me started on CFSHQ allowing paid staff places on specialist courses, that their brigade is not trained in, for the purpose of "Personal Development". That is a crock of scheiße if ever there was one.
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MCT is two way text communication man!..MDT's are the old machines that are getting replaced by Motorola equipment.
Oh well...they are virtually the same thing...just a C or a D :P
Ive heard CFS may use the Telstra NextG network for the Mobile Communications Terminal's
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MCT is two way text communication man!..MDT's are the old machines that are getting replaced by Motorola equipment.
Oh well...they are virtually the same thing...just a C or a D :P
Ive heard CFS may use the Telstra NextG network for the Mobile Communications Terminal's
Pfft, I'm like the QEII when it comes to these new fangled terms. She'll always be an MDT for me!
What do the new terminals bring to the table? Are they going for integrated GPS and auto routing to the Turnout address? Will they allow for extra information or note to be added to Alarm calls and certain other addresses?
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Yeah I was going to mention that NSWFB & RFS are in the same towns but not the same stations but I thought it was a minor thing :wink:
And you are dead right on the skills maintenance thing, but if thats the way it is I guess people will go with the flow or vote with their feet.
Anyway I guess its a case of wait & see.
cheers
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Well the version 2 MCT's can send custom text messages back to Adelaide fire, and by far are easier to read. Pretty much a windows interface.
Integrated GPS...scheiße yeh i hope that happens.
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Well the version 2 MCT's can send custom text messages back to Adelaide fire, and by far are easier to read. Pretty much a windows interface.
Integrated GPS...filtered yeh i hope that happens.
Sounds grouse, but would it be that useful? I'm not sure how often custom text would be that useful, radio seems to be easier?
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you could send abuse back to adelaide fire hehe...
it would be useful if you had canned messages like: "HICKS FLAT-14(TG124/146): ANY MORE CALL INFO???"
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Great, I'll stick another another piece of equipment onto the dash (in between all those dashboard stickers we have now) which only works in a small portion of my area....
I'd prefer to have the money for an MDT or MCT or whatever you want to call it, and spend it on something useful for the brigade!!
Pip
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Yeah I was going to mention that NSWFB & RFS are in the same towns but not the same stations but I thought it was a minor thing :wink:
cheers
Yeah thats what i meant. the last post came out wrong :oops:
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Pretty much a windows interface.
ooh, yuk!
In the future, I'd like to see SAMFS and SACFS merge so we can get rid of the cross service incompatibilities and the "us vs them" attitude.
I also agree about having clear Rural / Urban / Rescue training separations, but it would also be good to add further separation between urban and rural brigades.
I think we could also improve a lot by working closer with the other services, (SAPol, SAAS, SES, DEH, even security companies), so we can waste less volunteer's time and improve our service to the community.
As far as M(?)T's in trucks go, and can see them being very useful for Urban fringe brigades, as communication tools, navigation tools, but also to store and display localised information, (pre-plans for urban or water points for rural).
Isn't it nice to dream?
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Oziexplorer on a MCT, now that is a nice Dream to have and is very possible these days!
Instant waterpoint information in the rural fireground at your fingertips....MMMMMM
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Oziexplorer on a MCT, now that is a nice Dream to have and is very possible these days!
Instant waterpoint information in the rural fireground at your fingertips....MMMMMM
Working On this with someone right now and very close to having it up and running :-D
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Oziexplorer on a MCT, now that is a nice Dream to have and is very possible these days!
Instant waterpoint information in the rural fireground at your fingertips....MMMMMM
Working On this with someone right now and very close to having it up and running :-D
same, using a typical HP GPS navigation console (bluetooth phone integration as well)
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Pretty much a windows interface.
ooh, yuk!
In the future, I'd like to see SAMFS and SACFS merge so we can get rid of the cross service incompatibilities and the "us vs them" attitude.
That is always going to be there paid vs retained vs vollies. There will always be that division, not to mention the urban areas in region 1 and 2 getting the best of the best when it comes to equipment and the rest getting the hand me downs...
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If only Don Dunstan did go ahead with building a new city in area of Monarto....
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Oziexplorer on a MCT, now that is a nice Dream to have and is very possible these days!
Instant waterpoint information in the rural fireground at your fingertips....MMMMMM
Other states are doing this and have been for years! Why Fire services around Australia are so very afraid of sharing information and procedures, I don't know!
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That is always going to be there paid vs retained vs vollies. There will always be that division, not to mention the urban areas in region 1 and 2 getting the best of the best when it comes to equipment and the rest getting the hand me downs...
I was actually referring to the mentality that some CFS people seem to have that "we can't do that because then we'll look like the mets", even if its the better option. There will always be divisions within the service, no matter what...
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That is always going to be there paid vs retained vs vollies. There will always be that division, not to mention the urban areas in region 1 and 2 getting the best of the best when it comes to equipment and the rest getting the hand me downs...
My god, you have to be kidding. "The best of the best" Have you looked at where most of the new appliances are going? To the sticks buddy, to the sticks. Meanwhile, Region 1 and 2 scream for gear, trucks and positions on courses.
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There will always be that division, not to mention the urban areas in region 1 and 2 getting the best of the best when it comes to equipment and the rest getting the hand me downs...
Whooaa there big fella, you wouldn't want to say that in our station around our guys. I can't tell you how frustrating it is for us to see a brigade in Region 3 doing 7 calls a year recieve a brand new appliance when we have a 17 year old 24 doing 160 runs a year and strike teams galore that CFS won't replace.
If you can do the math to justify giving a brigade that does less than 15 calls a year a $250,000 brand new vehicle then you are better than I, yes that brigade needs something that is reliable and suitable for their area, but surely there is better way to dish out appliances funded with public money.
As for courses - dont get started there either. We have 3 brigades in our group who do a total of about 1000 calls year - mostly Urban related yet, we still can't get anyone on a BA course.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
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There will always be that division, not to mention the urban areas in region 1 and 2 getting the best of the best when it comes to equipment and the rest getting the hand me downs...
Whooaa there big fella, you wouldn't want to say that in our station around our guys. I can't tell you how frustrating it is for us to see a brigade in Region 3 doing 7 calls a year recieve a brand new appliance when we have a 17 year old 24 doing 160 runs a year and strike teams galore that CFS won't replace.
If you can do the math to justify giving a brigade that does less than 15 calls a year a $250,000 brand new vehicle then you are better than I, yes that brigade needs something that is reliable and suitable for their area, but surely there is better way to dish out appliances funded with public money.
As for courses - dont get started there either. We have 3 brigades in our group who do a total of about 1000 calls year - mostly Urban related yet, we still can't get anyone on a BA course.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
Hey Matt, I feel for you guys, sometimes I think appliance designation is pulled out of a hat rather than logical thinking.You guys should at least have a "Type 2" as well and a 34 would be good for your brigade also in my opinion.
Problem currently is the rural brigades that currently have 24's, are now screaming for 34's to get that extra 1000 litres, and Regions will end up with a lot of 24's noone wants in the end.
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I like the idea of busy brigades having MCT's, when your turning out 3-400 times a year how much easier to have a button, rather than gibbering on constantly, you could also run most of those urban fringe brigades on 150, not sure why we are so precious about radio channels.
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I like the idea of busy brigades having MCT's, when your turning out 3-400 times a year how much easier to have a button, rather than gibbering on constantly, you could also run most of those urban fringe brigades on 150, not sure why we are so precious about radio channels.
If I remember rightly didnt Smithfield, now Dalkeith have a MDT at one stage on trial?
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I should clarify that what I said about region 1 and 2 vs the rest of the state is not happenning now. I believe the rest of SA would get shafted if one fire service was to formed.
I agree that any CFS brigades doing less than 30 calls a year should only get refurbished appliances and not brand new ones. Unless there are special circumstances, ie RCR brigades that need an appliance with lockers that are user friendly for lifting heavy equipment etc.
At the moment you have appliances that are getting retired with maybe 20,000 km on the clock after 20 plus years while the busy brigades have 8 year old trucks with plenty more km on them. Like Salisbury and Morphett Vale I am guessing. There needs to be a bit of a rotation program for the appliances. I belive something along those lines happens in CFA, Bill??
Sorry if i offended anyone..
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Im sure your not offending anyone, Afterall, we arent in control of what we're talking about..."its the paid staffs job"
Rotation System, Great Idea! Mt Graham 34??? Rust is going to kill it before it gets anywhere else.
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At the moment you have appliances that are getting retired with maybe 20,000 km on the clock after 20 plus years while the busy brigades have 8 year old trucks with plenty more km on them. Like Salisbury and Morphett Vale I am guessing.
Out of interest Morphett Vale 24P is now 9 years old and has done 28,000 kms, Morphett Vale 24 is 17 years old and is about to crack 60,000 kms. Not much for a truck I know, but seems to be a fair bit in the CFS. You see 20 year old vehicles go to auction with around 25,000kms on them.
If I remember rightly didnt Smithfield, now Dalkeith have a MDT at one stage on trial?
Dalkeith and Belair each had one in their stations in the late 90's as part of a trial, they got pulled out because MFS needed them for spare parts for their own units. I would expect to see MCT's in the urban fringe brigades but not in the rural areas. As it is at the moment the network only extends 100km's from the CBD anyway.
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Twice above the CFS standard auction km level?! :-o
Geez mate, i hear you! About time you get some new trucks!
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I should clarify that what I said about region 1 and 2 vs the rest of the state is not happenning now. I believe the rest of SA would get shafted if one fire service was to formed.
I agree that any CFS brigades doing less than 30 calls a year should only get refurbished appliances and not brand new ones. Unless there are special circumstances, ie RCR brigades that need an appliance with lockers that are user friendly for lifting heavy equipment etc.
At the moment you have appliances that are getting retired with maybe 20,000 km on the clock after 20 plus years while the busy brigades have 8 year old trucks with plenty more km on them. Like Salisbury and Morphett Vale I am guessing. There needs to be a bit of a rotation program for the appliances. I belive something along those lines happens in CFA, Bill??
Sorry if i offended anyone..
You're still pretty off base with appliance ages and the work they've done, there are many busy R1 and R2 brigades with multiple appliances over 15 years old. I would LOVE an appliance under 10 years old.
I don't see why the busiest brigades around the state can't get new appliances every 5 years with their old ones being rotated out to quieter brigades. This allows appliances to be used less as they get older, putting less strain on an already old machine. There is no use having 20 year old appliances getting flogger up and down hills every second day.
Not to mention the PR aspect of having good looking, new trucks in busy urban fringe areas to help combat the widespread idea that we are all bushfire fighting dads army types.