SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: rescue5271 on February 05, 2009, 06:20:04 AM
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Has anyone heard that CFS wish to reduce the number of GRN radio's that a brigade or group have??? I have asked that our brigade get a GRN for our LT 1 so if the Captain is away that he can have contact with teh appliance's.Was informned this will not happen as CFS want to reduce the number of GRN radio's that it has out there. Dont take this the wrong way but why remove radios from region's outside of the METRO area where most if not all station have their own station GRN radio???? Some brigade's also have a duty GRN handheld/portable radio for the brigade duty officer,If CFS wants to remove the radio's due to a shortage then why not start in the regions that have radios at each fire station.
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I don't understand why Captains have portable or fixed radios let alone Lt's, if your not there to go, then your not going to be able to help much, and if the crew around can't handle things then as a Captain your not doing a very good teaching job then.
As for radios in stations, lets go VICFIRE style, runs much better.
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it will open a can of worms bill...you want one for a LT1 some one else will want one for LT3 plus the new GRN roll out has started so maybe could have somethin to do with it....used a new GRN when in lincoln looks interesting...Region 4 is next :-D
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yeah it is about avoiding the "i want" disease. Think about Need's and why you need it before asking ;)
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No CFS do not "wish to reduce the number of GRN radio's that a brigade or group have". As usual you have half or less of the story (which is not necessarily your fault). All I'll say is that the CFS can use the radios we already have in a much smarter way.
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overall theres supposedly 1700 Portable's.
using the following scheme (best suited, not the current scheme):
QAV/14/24/34/BWC/Other: 1
24P/34P: 2
Pumper: 3
Rescue: 1
Command: 3
overall only 1091 Portables would be on appliances.
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I don't understand why Captains have portable or fixed radios let alone Lt's, if your not there to go, then your not going to be able to help much, and if the crew around can't handle things then as a Captain your not doing a very good teaching job then.
As for radios in stations, lets go VICFIRE style, runs much better.
Yeah, never quite got my head around why people not at incidents need radios. Maybe things are vastly different in the sticks... or maybe not.
using the following scheme (best suited, not the current scheme):
QAV/14/24/34/BWC/Other: 1
24P/34P: 2
Pumper: 3
Rescue: 1
Command: 3
overall only 1091 Portables would be on appliances.
Why do we need so many GRN radios on appliances? 3 on a pumper? GRN is meant to be used for Commnad, not fluffing around on the Fireground, thats what VHF is for. There should be one VHF radio per riding postion on a truck, but sadly that seems to be a pipe dream as well.
Crew: VHF
Driver/Pump operator: VHF/Mobile GRN
OIC: VHF and GRN
This way you have the OIC able to talk on the GRN command channel, as well as talking to his/other crew on VHF. The crew can then talk amongst themselves, and to the crews for oncoming appliances, leaving GRN for just Incident Command.
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Note the power button and emergency button :roll: Ha ha, some people can't even handle that let alone 2 or 3 radios.
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Why do we need so many GRN radios on appliances? 3 on a pumper? GRN is meant to be used for Commnad, not fluffing around on the Fireground, thats what VHF is for. There should be one VHF radio per riding postion on a truck, but sadly that seems to be a pipe dream as well.
Crew: VHF
Driver/Pump operator: VHF/Mobile GRN
OIC: VHF and GRN
This way you have the OIC able to talk on the GRN command channel, as well as talking to his/other crew on VHF. The crew can then talk amongst themselves, and to the crews for oncoming appliances, leaving GRN for just Incident Command.
How do the Peri-Urban and "Neighbour" brigades of MFS Regional brigades like Murray Bridge work with the MFS on the Fireground...GRN.
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Why do we need so many GRN radios on appliances? 3 on a pumper? GRN is meant to be used for Commnad, not fluffing around on the Fireground, thats what VHF is for. There should be one VHF radio per riding postion on a truck, but sadly that seems to be a pipe dream as well.
Crew: VHF
Driver/Pump operator: VHF/Mobile GRN
OIC: VHF and GRN
This way you have the OIC able to talk on the GRN command channel, as well as talking to his/other crew on VHF. The crew can then talk amongst themselves, and to the crews for oncoming appliances, leaving GRN for just Incident Command.
How do the Peri-Urban and "Neighbour" brigades of MFS Regional brigades like Murray Bridge work with the MFS on the Fireground...GRN.
As I said, command and control still uses GRN. If working with SAMFS is such an issue, then why dont we have 6 Simplex enabled portable radios on each truck? In the event that a CFS chap os IC of a job, he simply talks to the SAMFS S/O on GRN to direct their crew as to what to do. Vice versa, if the MFS S/O, or above is IC, then they are instructing, via GRN what they wish the CFS to do. The CFS OIC then becomes crew leader of the CFS crew.
GRN should be used for command and control, but in the event of a Multi Agency Incident it can then be used for strategic communications, with VHF as your tacical radio.
It all works...
(This all goes without saying that I believe we should all have a single type of radio, with some GRN enabled and the rest Simplex only. But the cost involved well outweighs the benefits)
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think it would be cheaper to bring MFS along the ride to VHF fireground lol
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think it would be cheaper to bring MFS along the ride to VHF fireground lol
WHY ???? :? Genuine question when you include infrastructure expansion & maintenance costs.
Many other agencies use the simplex GRN feature with no issues. Why bring VHF in when Simplex GRN works.
Yes, I know that smoke inhibits handheld to GRN Tower communications. But I thought this was fine line of sight.
I also personally believe that not enough Simplex Talkgroups exist for use at a large incident.
I admit I am not sure if SES simplex talkgroups C30 & C31 can talk to other agencies in simplex mode. I would hope so, but unsure.
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CFS Use VHF Fireground. the two services on the fire ground cant intercommunicate. Meanwhile Command and Control does. So pretty much you need a CFS Operations officer and a MFS Operations officer. Pain in a bum, would be nice to have 1 person running the operations for the entire job.
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The concept of a captains radio maybe a good idea for some Brigades rather than something for all Brigades. From experience the idea of captains having a radio so that they can monitor the incident from a distance is a bit of pain in the neck. If they can't make it to the incident then don't both monitoring the incident as it already been said before trust those on the ground to make the right decision. If they can't do the job then all I can say is look at the way you do your training and how you pass knowledge on so they are capable in doing the job.
To add a different flavour to the VHF and GRN argument. In the more remote parts of SA where trucks can drive for significant distance to an incident why not consider bring back the HF radio maybe a bit antiquated but they certainly worked well in these areas.
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Or even better bring back the communications officer position to all brigades so theres someone who can operate the radios and do all the communciations for their brigade while at an incident
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Robert they do that in region and one and two but this may also become a thing of the past when SAFECOM come on line fully with CRD. In regions 3 and 5 the group base does all the radio traffic and its more than likely that you will be talking to a group officer or the group comms offer when calling up on the radio. Hay if they are that short on radio's then go and bye more and if they are unable to get the GRN radio then there is something wrong what those that set up the GRN contract.
The other question i have if they have started rolling out the new GRN when will we see training on it? what would happen if we where to send crews to mann appliances on KI or region 4/6 where some of the new radio's have been installed???
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CFS Use VHF Fireground. the two services on the fire ground cant intercommunicate. Meanwhile Command and Control does. So pretty much you need a CFS Operations officer and a MFS Operations officer. Pain in a bum, would be nice to have 1 person running the operations for the entire job.
Not really, you have only one person as operations officer, and then, if need be, under that you have CFS/MFS Divisions and/or sectors (or operating under a sector commander that can talk to both). The two services should be able to talk on the fireground, this can be achieved with GRN rather than VHF, but not currently as implemented by CFS. Don't forget that with your suggestions of having SAMFS use VHF this would mean having more people running with multiple radios, rather than having everyone with the same radio (Simplex capable) and a select few also GRN capable.
For the time being though I believe that CFS don't need as many GRN portables on trucks as they have, and could do well to have more in command cars so that for your larger jobs with an IMT that requires multiple people to have portable GRN radios, they can be supplied.
I hate the current VHF radios - obviously the handset was selected by someone with zero firefighting knowledge or experience.
Or even better bring back the communications officer position to all brigades so theres someone who can operate the radios and do all the communciations for their brigade while at an incident
Wow you guys do things REAL different in the sticks...
The Comms officer (or as now know as Co-Ordinator) has nothing to do with being assigned to operate the radios at incidents ;)
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So how many GRN radios do briagdes have in their appliances,down here its only main grn radio and one grn handheld, One main VHF and 3 handheld VHF..
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So how many GRN radios do briagdes have in their appliances,down here its only main grn radio and one grn handheld, One main VHF and 3 handheld VHF..
gee your privlidged to get that many billy.
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current operating procedure with the Bombers, combined with their response times in most cases means it is almost going to be mandatory for Appliances likely to be Incident Controllers initially to have 2 GRN portables with the requirement to monitor on 108 as well as a Command TG. You don't want an IC tied to their appliance because of a radio when they will be doing far more stuff on the ground with crews.
If we assume 9000 active firefighters, and a reasonably durable simple VHF radio is around $65 ....then just give everyone their own, far more useful for this (and safer as well - wait till someone gets hurt inside a building and doesnt have a radio for the next OHS crapfight). Yeah yeah...lots of reasons why it wont happen.....but it could if we wanted it to. Sure...it would cost one new super multi purpose combined ESO mega base to be deferred for 12 months.....but thats a fair trade I reckon
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For the time being though I believe that CFS don't need as many GRN portables on trucks as they have, and could do well to have more in command cars so that for your larger jobs with an IMT that requires multiple people to have portable GRN radios, they can be supplied.
Is one GRN portable per appliance too many ? :evil:
Many areas have only one GRN radio allocated. I believe in the first roll out of GRN radios, by the time they got to Region 6, they didn't have quite as many radios as they needed, and consequently, there are brigades out there with no portable GRN for their appliance.....with the change over to new radios they should at least get their allocated number of radios...eg one per appliance....!
Pip
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Is one GRN portable per appliance too many ? :evil:
Many areas have only one GRN radio allocated. I believe in the first roll out of GRN radios, by the time they got to Region 6, they didn't have quite as many radios as they needed, and consequently, there are brigades out there with no portable GRN for their appliance.....with the change over to new radios they should at least get their allocated number of radios...eg one per appliance....!
Pip
Ah... you could suggest that you have one GRN mobile radio on the truck and that we could avoid a large amount of transmission issues, both the waffling and the broken transmissions by not using the 4w Portable Handsets. Its not hard for the OIC to have the Pump operator or themselves pass messages to Adelaide Fire or the relevent Station via the Mobile GRN.
Do we really need portable GRN radios for incidents that do not have multi-person IMT's, Safety officers and division/sector commanders?
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When GRN was rolled out we were given 3 GRN portables per appliance, this was shortly after reduced to 2 per appliance due to not enough per Region.
One portable is left on TG108 to communicate with the bombers, and one
on the brigades local TG.
This was also back in the days when CFS/MFS could talk on VHF together, however someone in their infinite wisdom decided to change the bandwith to 12.5Khz spacing in the frequencies.End of interservice communications.
Another thing is CFS use VHF for fireground comms, whereas MFS use GRN.
Someone mentioned $65 for a VHF radio, well the CFS approved Icom is $893.00 each from Tetracom.For OHS every crew should have one...especially the pump operator. :wink:
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One per appliance in my brigade...Region 1
It would be ideal to have a spare portable to be taken by the first responding appliance of the brigade to a rural job where ya know Bombers will go.
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Someone mentioned $65 for a VHF radio, well the CFS approved Icom is $893.00 each from Tetracom.
which is precisely why we dont have more of them, ridiculously overpriced, Tetracom should be riding a horse and wearing a mask. Safe, simple and waterproof all u need.....$65 ...or cheaper if the $AUS ever improves
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Well we on;y have 1 portable in each truck. I agree with those who say we don't really need more GRN's just more VHFs.
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The CFS can't win with some of you guys, I can imagine all the crap if they issued $65 VHF radios (like the chinese ones you get on ebay). The better quality of these radios generally work ok to start with but very quickly go out of spec (if they were ever in spec).
The dollars quoted for the Icoms from tetracom is not just for a radio but a package of spare battery, case, programming, 5 yr warranty and overheads for tetracom to deal with all that is involved when invoicing the state govt. Just the bare radio itself is around $450 odd I think - but my opinion is for the quality of the radio that is too much but really who cares, you either need a piece of equipment or not, regardless of cost. I completely agree that every appliance should be equipped with one VHF portable per person but of course there is no central funding for that but groups run their own budget and are free to buy as many extras as they want depending how important they decide this to be.
The official allocation of GRN portables was supposed to be 1 per appliance except specificed EMA and special purpose appliances get 2. This was not always followed properly in some regions (but is pretty much the rule in region 1 at least).
We can work with MFS on the fireground at present, you just have to treat the MFS appliance as their own sector reporting on GRN (trunked or simplex) to the IC or DivCom (works better when you have a couple of MFS appliances and a district officer in a car, he can act as a strike team leader or sector commander).
I can understand people calling for an additional portable for appliances to be able to talk to the bombers but in the bigger picture that is not a good idea. Other regions would have been better following region 6 lead and insisting the bombers use the incident talkgroup otherwise accept the fact that the bombers will not be able to talk to anyone until a command car arrives on scene (or the group duty officer relays between the incident TG and bombers).
Finally HF radios have not gone out, they are still around but the preference is satphones, every appliance in remote areas should have one, if not then talk to your group officer and put in a hazard form and make a fuss until you do.
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....Someone mentioned $65 for a VHF radio, well the CFS approved Icom is $893.00 each from Tetracom.For OHS every crew should have one...especially the pump operator. :wink:
Then add the cost of the repeater towers that were established, licenses, maintenance, repairs, staff, etc if you expanded the VHF network.
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Does the VHF network even use repeaters ?
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not in SA (there is no 'VHF network' just VHF radios), I presume bajdas is talking about a theoretical return to 'the good old days'
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Does the VHF network even use repeaters ?
According to a cable installer a few years ago during the setup, some are on towers in the Murray Mallee area. But that is second-hand old knowledge, so could be wrong.
But CFS are paying a lot of license fees to Australian Communications and Media Authority, so I would expect they still exist. http://web.acma.gov.au/pls/radcom/client_search.client_lookup?pCLIENT_NO=169283&pSORT_BY=&pOFFSET=0
The website details CBRS repeaters at Kingston, Paney Homestead, Flinders Chase National Park & Innes National Park.
The then again it also lists three maritime licenses ????? :?
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There are still quite a few groups who run HF in appliances and command cars, ie Region 3,4,6 groups.
Satphones seem to have taken over most HF as preferred communication of choice.
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Beside the fact they aren't very good radio's with woeful batteries.
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What will be interesting is how many times the "Emergency Call" button will be activated on the new GRN radios when the rollout is completed.Not exactly the best spot for it :?
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What will be interesting is how many times the "Emergency Call" button will be activated on the new GRN radios when the rollout is completed.Not exactly the best spot for it :?
keep the 0.5's away from the radios and everything should be ok
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According to a cable installer a few years ago during the setup, some are on towers in the Murray Mallee area. But that is second-hand old knowledge, so could be wrong.
they were wrong or mistaken
But CFS are paying a lot of license fees to Australian Communications and Media Authority, so I would expect they still exist.
The info I have is the licences are for fireground VHF and HF. Also CFS doesn't pay for ACMA licences.
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According to a cable installer a few years ago during the setup, some are on towers in the Murray Mallee area. But that is second-hand old knowledge, so could be wrong.
they were wrong or mistaken
But CFS are paying a lot of license fees to Australian Communications and Media Authority, so I would expect they still exist.
The info I have is the licences are for fireground VHF and HF. Also CFS doesn't pay for ACMA licences.
OK, thanks for the updated information.