SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: COBB on September 16, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
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Last season's Incident Stats have been uploaded to http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/news_display.asp?HeadLine_ID=862 (http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/news_display.asp?HeadLine_ID=862)
Are these stats used for anything like funding or allocation of equipment etc?
Or are they purely for information only?
Are descrepancies between brigades figures and HQ figures the norm or the exception? Looking at my own brigades figures over the last couple of years they differ on average between 15%-20%, always with the brigade figure higher. Are some types of calls not counted?
Cheers
COBB
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The differances between brigade and HQ stats could be either due to reports not submitted, lost somewhere along the way or not entered properly at HQ.
The interenet stats at Pips site, although useful dont seem to be one hundred percent accurate, and for some reason all changed recently. Previous years stats took a dive?
A brigade i was with for 08/09 did smack on 100 incidents, yet the site reads 67... bit strange. Brigade i am currently with is showing 4 less for last year than our brigade records also.
So lets hope theyre not used for funding!
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same for our brigade we nearly always seem to show 4-10 calls below what we actually did
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ditto I reckon Al is spot on, we always do 4-10 calls more than HQ seem to record.
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All the stats on the site are directly from CFS HQ records....we don't do any manipulations of the data......but we can correct the data, if suplied by CFS HQ....
My own brigade is listed as a few less call on the data, than the brigade did....and I know we sent the incident reports in!!
Activity stats will be uploaded soon. :-D
Pip
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How can we really discuss accuracy when it comes to incident stats when we don't use AIRS correctly?
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Having worked at CFS entering these reports what you send doesn't always come out the other end correctly, and some brigades take the incident reporting to far, I remember one high turning out brigade sent in a report and I quote "I noticed the toilet window on the station was open, secured for secuirty" I mean come on !!
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Having worked at CFS entering these reports what you send doesn't always come out the other end correctly, and some brigades take the incident reporting to far, I remember one high turning out brigade sent in a report and I quote "I noticed the toilet window on the station was open, secured for secuirty" I mean come on !!
Doesn't that make it an activity, not an incident...... :evil:
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i have noticed a brigade website that put down burnoffs, and silly things like that as callouts in their incident section.... :lol:
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So lets hope theyre not used for funding!
Actually, I think they are, but only to an extent. I think there's a threshold, (150 calls a year rings a bell), after which a brigade, (or group), gets more funding. From memory it wasn't all that much though. (Notice a pattern of uncertainty here?)
My brigade always gets short changed on the official tally too - I'm interested to know why there's a discrepancy...
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ahhh really there only stats wouldnt it be good if every brigade was under 10 per year!
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Nice to see that HQ cant get the stats right again,so the fax machine at HQ must eat the reports or they fall into a bin somewhere along the fax line.....
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I often has reports come out black, or so crooked that they couldn't be read, or upside down, thats always a good one.
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if you want to "fix" your stats so you can boost funding....go and see Kevin from SAAS - he's a comms manager but a whizz at fudging figures!!
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Will be great once we see the online airs reporting being done from group bases...
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a trial started....2008??
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Nice to see that HQ cant get the stats right again,so the fax machine at HQ must eat the reports or they fall into a bin somewhere along the fax line.....
When i worked there, there would be several reports a day faxed through upside down... Don't be too quick to always blame staff.
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haha mind you i remember getting the list for reports our brigade hadnt put in and there were a couple i had phoned through myself on there :-P :-D
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haha mind you i remember getting the list for reports our brigade hadnt put in and there were a couple i had phoned through myself on there :-P :-D
How did you get the list? Is that something HQ can provide?
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It used to come in a letter to the Captain do they not do this anymore?
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Didn't see any this year....but got the incident list a few years ago sent to Captains, via the GO...... but haven't seen any for some time....
Pip
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we had one sent to our group early last year then passed down to brigades with dates and times of jobs that no reports had been recieved for.... havent seen one in the last 12 months
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You can request one via the region....
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You can always tell the brigades who to try make themselves look busy come June they call in 30-40 trees down to boost the figures...and yes just because you send a report in does not mean it meets any criteria for a firecall hence why your numbers may be lower.
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...and yes just because you send a report in does not mean it meets any criteria for a firecall hence why your numbers may be lower.
What criteria do you need to fulfill to make it a firecall? Surely an appliance leaving the station to deal with an incident (regardless of what it is) would be considered a call?
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...and yes just because you send a report in does not mean it meets any criteria for a firecall hence why your numbers may be lower.
What criteria do you need to fulfill to make it a firecall? Surely an appliance leaving the station to deal with an incident (regardless of what it is) would be considered a call?
Criteria is simple. A page from Adelaide Fire (regardless of what it is for) that is logged in CRIIMSON.
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...and yes just because you send a report in does not mean it meets any criteria for a firecall hence why your numbers may be lower.
What criteria do you need to fulfill to make it a firecall? Surely an appliance leaving the station to deal with an incident (regardless of what it is) would be considered a call?
Criteria is simple. A page from Adelaide Fire (regardless of what it is for) that is logged in CRIIMSON.
Not really. Not all jobs go through Adelaide Fire anyway; ie local alarms monitored by brigades [still reasonably common], incidents come across and dealt with locally, etc. To be honest i would say CFS HQ have no right to refuse any occurence of a fire truck and crew attending any 'emergency' be classified a firecall. And as far as i know they dont, unless some operators just do there own thing...
Although unless there is specific damage to a premises that a report is needed for residents insurance, i do disagree with multiple reports being submitted for every single tree down during a storm event. As some do this to bolster there numbers nearing end of financial year [no im not joking]. I even know of reports being entered for minor jobs that never happened in the first place to bolster stats.
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What if those 30 odd calls were from Adelaide fire? and not just the brigade going out looking for them?
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Any jobs that you attend will show up on your TAS, which you can check through the CFS website members section.
So if you went to a job and it isn't on your TAS list then it hasn't been entered into the system (and there could be lots of reasons why it hasn't happened).
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Any jobs that you attend will show up on your TAS, which you can check through the CFS website members section.
So if you went to a job and it isn't on your TAS list then it hasn't been entered into the system (and there could be lots of reasons why it hasn't happened).
Or it's been listed to someone else.
a couple calls earlier this year have most of our 70yr+ support members as attending :D
If paperwork isn't being received, is incomplete, unreadable or wrong, there should be a process to follow up with the brigade if there is missing reports so that it is accurate. It's going to end up in court one day and hopefully the brigade has filed a copy of their own. Thats assuming that they have done the report in the first place and haven't forgotten.
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If you talk to most RURAL brigades they tell you they dont fax the report but rather call it into the airs desk only problem is that you can not call the number from a mobile phone and this is one thing that CFS should look at changing so that members can call the number from a mobile phone...
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So, I have a question. Are the CFS going to actually allow volunteers full access to AIRS to allow us to fill out AIRS reports correctly?
There are around 250 incident types, yet we are only able to input a handful with the current CFS template. There is the ability to place others codes in the report, but do CFS issue the entire AIRS reference document? No.
For example, take the three common MVA related 'incident types':
Vehicle Accident w/Injuries
Vehicle Accident Rescue
Vehicle Accident no injuries
Then throw their AIRS codes in next to them, and their correct definitions:
322 - Vehicle Accident w/Injuries
351 - Vehicle Accident w/Injuries and/or Exritcation of Victims
352 - Vehicle Accident no injuries
So we then find that not only is there no distinction between a vehicle accident with injuries and a vehcile accident w/extrication, but the CFS apprently go to a HEAP of EMS calls each year. Codes 300 - 329 being Medical/EMS calls.
Then we look at what is given by the Promo unit for a Brigade such a Morphett Vale.
Where do incident types such as "Rescue Road Crash" and "Rescue General" come from? Why are these separate and not defined under AIRS codes?
350 Extrication, rescue; insufficient information to classify further
351 Vehicle accident with injuries and/or Extrication of victim
352 Vehicle accident no injuries
353 Removal of victim(s) from stalled elevator/escalator
354 Defective elevator no occupants
355 Trench rescue
356 Confined space rescue
357 High angle and vertical rescue
358 Extrication of victim(s) from building
359 Extrication, rescue not classified above
360 Water and ice-related rescue; insufficient information to classify further
361 Drowning, near drowning
362 Ice rescue
363 Swift water rescue
364 Surf rescue
369 Water and ice-related rescue not classified above
Im pretty sure that the above AIRS codes cover pretty much any type of rescue/extrication.
Again, "Structure Domestic" and "Structure School" What are these? Where did they magically come from?
Aren't these incidents identified as one of the 30 odd Building fire codes, and then the type of building is further classified separate to the incident type?
How can the CFS expect to be able to collect data on the work we do when we A) Get no AIRS training and more worryingly, B) CFS use some half baked home-schooled version of AIRS?
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These extra codes are created when the AirDesk staff when the report into AIIRS. Generally they will find the code that best matches the incident type.
I believe once the online AIIRS goes live brigades will have access to all of these codes.
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These extra codes are created when the AirDesk staff when the report into AIIRS. Generally they will find the code that best matches the incident type.
I believe once the online AIIRS goes live brigades will have access to all of these codes.
I'm confused though as they don't appear in AIRS... (we are talking about "Structure school" etc?)
Why are those on the AirDesk attempting to "Best fit" things into a system that allows you to put a stupid amount of accuracy into your fire report?
Are they even trained in how to input things into AIRS?
For example, AIRS allows you to differentiate between schools as such:
211 - Pre‐schools prior to formal education. Centres for pre‐school education where children attend for 4 hours a day or less. If attendance is over 4 hours a day, classify as child daycare centre (321)
212 - Educational property for 1st year of formal education
213 - Educational property for primary grades of education
214 - Educational property for secondary grades of education. If solely for final years use 215
215 - Educational property solely for senior years of secondary education
219 - Non‐residential schools not classified above
210 - Non‐residential schools; insufficient information available to classify further
Thats an amazing amount of detail to be provided, yet we have people making things up as they go along...
Inline with AFAC standards, SACFS is meant to be collecting, at the very least, a Core Data Set:
http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/national_data__and__glossary/national_data_documents/FINAL_CORE_DATAB_Dec06.pdf (http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/national_data__and__glossary/national_data_documents/FINAL_CORE_DATAB_Dec06.pdf)
For anyone who can be bothered, there is an updated version of block A out, (16/06/10) that also manages to outline all the diffent building types and the like that are required to be entered in. Its only a short 166 pages, but does make a good read, and manages to highlight the Data that we are NOT collecting and perhaps should...
http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/national_data__and__glossary/national_data_documents/Block_A_All_Incidents_FINALA1_Jun10.pdf (http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/national_data__and__glossary/national_data_documents/Block_A_All_Incidents_FINALA1_Jun10.pdf)
In other news, I have no life and the personality of a wet mud brick :)
Happy reading!
(P.S. mattb, don't go getting your AIIMS mixed up with your AIRS)
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Numbers, Structure School, Structure Domestic, Rescue General, Rescue Heights,Vehicle Accident, etc etc are generalised BOMS codes for dispatch.
You cant expect the dispatch system, and operators, to use the exact incident type [AIRS code] for this, as not only may it not be correct, but thats a hell of a lot of codes to remember.
BOMS codes then go straght into AIRS to create an IIR {initial incident report] and the codes only change if/when a report is submitted by the primary brigade.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
Re; AIRS acess for brigades, there was talk of it some time ago [around 3.5 years ago] and a number of CFS stations had there name down to be a participant in the trial, but then i believe cost got in the way [online portals apparently being expensive, plus designing a dumbed down version].
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SACAD will fix everything.....
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SACAD will fix everything.....
ALL HAIL SACAD!!!
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In other news, I have no life and the personality of a wet mud brick :)
Numbers thats simply not true!!!!
A wet mud brick has way more personality than you.
[admin edit: fixed quoting]
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Numbers, Structure School, Structure Domestic, Rescue General, Rescue Heights,Vehicle Accident, etc etc are generalised BOMS codes for dispatch.
You cant expect the dispatch system, and operators, to use the exact incident type [AIRS code] for this, as not only may it not be correct, but thats a filtered of a lot of codes to remember.
BOMS codes then go straght into AIRS to create an IIR {initial incident report] and the codes only change if/when a report is submitted by the primary brigade.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
Re; AIRS acess for brigades, there was talk of it some time ago [around 3.5 years ago] and a number of CFS stations had there name down to be a participant in the trial, but then i believe cost got in the way [online portals apparently being expensive, plus designing a dumbed down version].
I understand the difference between the AIRS incident type and generalised dispatch incident types, and in no way was I suggesting that we should have the AIRS incident listed on the pager...
Its just intersting to find the BOMS dispatch labels making their way into stats that I thought would have been all standardised to the AIRS format. I assume this occurs when no report is submitted thus the IIR does not change? How do these BOMS codes then line up with the AIRS codes? Do they track across correctly?
In no way, shape or form am I suggesting that anyone should know all the codes off the top of their heads, but there are these crazy things called computers. For example we have 40odd incident types in the Fire Report v4 template drop down box currently, is there any reason we do not have access to all of them? Why do we not have access to a simple list so that we can add in the correct details if we so desire?
It seems like an easy fix, not one that requires copious amounts of money for an online submission capability.
Meanwhile, I'm going back to memorising the AIRS manual... If you need any help with a fire report, just call me!
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Its just intersting to find the BOMS dispatch labels making their way into stats that I thought would have been all standardised to the AIRS format. I assume this occurs when no report is submitted thus the IIR does not change?
How do these BOMS codes then line up with the AIRS codes? Do they track across correctly?
No. Along with all [or most, as the CFS designed version of AIRS, also used by MFS, does not contain most of those you listed...] the AFAC AIRS codes in the AIRS databasethere is a list of SAMFS BOMS Codes. All dispatches then transition to AIRS and keep there BOMS code until changes by either the CFS AirDesk to a generic code for CFS incidents, or the correct code on completion of a fire report for CFS or MFS.
Nothing stopping brigades from getting a list of incident type codes from CFS and then doing there own "situation found = xx, action taken = xx" in the information section of there fire report... would be nice if CFS updated the template and did a roll out though.
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maybe they could install it in our nice new shiny second hand computers we are getting :-D
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They wont do that as when you get your newish second hand PC it will have nothing in it so your group is going to go and spend money on it before you can get it to work.....
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They wont do that as when you get your newish second hand PC it will have nothing in it so your group is going to go and spend money on it before you can get it to work.....
Spend money on what?
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Groups will have to buy ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs,internet access if you don't already have it and of course power to your shed if you don't have it....
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Groups will have to buy ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs,internet access if you don't already have it and of course power to your shed if you don't have it....
Could you invest in a learn English program? Also, can you provide me with an ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs?
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Groups will have to buy ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs,internet access if you don't already have it and of course power to your shed if you don't have it....
Could you invest in a learn English program? Also, can you provide me with an ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs?
Picky, picky, picky.... Hopefully that is what the project manager will be organising.
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Groups will have to buy ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs,internet access if you don't already have it and of course power to your shed if you don't have it....
Could you invest in a learn English program? Also, can you provide me with an ANTI VIRIOUS,Programs?
Picky, picky, picky.... Hopefully that is what the project manager will be organising.
Hopefully the project manager will be installing one of the many excellent free anti-virus programs, rather than wasting money buying one...
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We can only hope....
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Are incident stats still used by CFS to determine the number/type of appliances a brigade should have?
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Yes, but No is the real answer
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For my curosity, would the 'volunteer hours at incidents' be a better measure for CFS brigades than the 'number of incidents attended' ?
I assume that for a major fire, this is one incident that would go over a few days.
I imagine that this is being recorded, but seems to have less meaning to CFS volunteers, given the discussion on this forum.
This would mean that the Brigade might only attend a small number of incidents, but many hours of unpaid labour was used.
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The amount of person hours is included on the Promo website, along with the number of incidents attended.....
Pip