SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: oz fire on April 20, 2006, 09:12:58 AM
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There was a debate this morning on TV about raising the driving age and standardising 18 Australia wide!
What do people think?
My view - great idea. I may be generalising, however it is interesting that the 16 - 25 age group make up a little less than 15% of the population, however account for in excess of 35% of accidents and 45% of serious accidents (sourced from MAC). I personally have attended numerous accidents and an increasing number of serious/fatals where inexperience and age have been the major factor!
After all you need to be 18 to vote and 18 to drink - yet you can openly drive (with a passenger) a one tonne steel machine on populated roads from 16 with little instruction.
The other side to the argument is - Who should be responsible for young drivers education and the vehicle they drive. Maybe a standard in education and restriction in vehicle types is the answer (similar to motor bikes)
Now before people get fired up ... I am not having a go at anyone, however this is a serious issue and as emergency service workers something that we should have an open and honest opinion on!
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The other side to the argument is - Who should be responsible for young drivers education and the vehicle they drive. Maybe a standard in education and restriction in vehicle types is the answer (similar to motor bikes)
I have four kids at home & one drives with another eligible in a year. So far one accident, which was minor of hitting a gate when reversing from the driveway.
We are restricting my kids to four cylinder older cars (Mazda 323 & TN Magna), except in the country where they use the VZ Commodore.
If my son had not been able to drive by 17, then he would not have 4 years work experience at McDonalds, attend Scouting events as a Rover, attended TAFE education, etc.
When I started driving I experienced four accidents by my mid-20's until I enrolled in an advanced defensive driver training course. This taught me so much re skid control, etc that I have never forgotten. Since then only one accident (currently 44 years old).
Have investigated sending my kids on defensive driving courses, but now three types. Up to 60km/hr, up to 80km/hr and up to 110km/hr. I can understand this, but the cost is huge.
But I will still pay for the course so that my family is safer. To myself it is a better form of insurance against serious, life changing injury that could occur.
So in summary:
* I agree with limiting the engine kilowatt power output to weight ratio of cars for young drivers.
* Enforce better driver education rather than limit age.
Has anyone else done advanced driver training courses recently ?
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I unfortunately agree with raising the age limit..I was raised on a farm and was driving from the time I could reach the pedals and see over the steering wheel but city kids dont' have that exposure.
In today's society there is too much emphasis put on to their rights and not responsibilities..they are very much more immature in their decision making processes these days and as a result, not mature enough to be on the roads.
I look at the hoons who roar around the town..nearly ALL are P platers...
I also think that new drivers (of ANY age)should be made to do the defensive driving course. I would consider myself a confident driver and hold a HC licence (semi) and have driven trucks etc but what the guy taught us in 1 day has saved me on a couple of occasions already.
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After having just recently got my P1's I can say that the instruction is very good and quite in depth. Raising the driving age wont do a lot I dont think as a lot of accidents are from people who are over 18. Someone I was speaking to about this said that the driving age should be put to 18 and the drinking age lowered to 16 so then by the time they get to drive they are used to the affects of alchohol.
I also started driving on a farm from when I could reach the pedals (thats the beauty of having grandparents on a farm at Keith) so alos got an advantage over ost of my mates who didnt get that oppurtunity and I believe it does help.
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Driving on farms etc when young is an advantage as is undertaking defensive driving courses (have completed a few both on and off road)
I guess my greatest concern is speed, high powered cars and young inexperienced and over confident drivers - which as many of us have witnessed often ends in disaster!
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I'm not really sure how to do it, but putting the age up to 18 will really hurt a lot of country kids. Its not just that they wouldnt be able to get out socially, they wouldnt be able to get to work either. Distance is the unrecognised devil for country people and depriving country kids of the ability to travel is not an option in my opinion.
Now I would be in favour of some sort of restricted licence for country kids that allowed them to drive during maybe set hour, for instance between 5:30 in the morning and 8:00 at night perhaps. If they wantedf to stay out later they would have to get a ride home or stay over. Not sure how it could be managed.
I guess like everything else it will be driven from the city and country will have to wear it!
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It doesnt matter what you do the problem will always be around.
It simply comes down to driver attitude! Extra education would be beneficial but i dont believe it will cull the death count by a lot!
No offence but restricting driving times is stupid. all it does is hurt the responsible ones.
Restricting power is a good idea but realistically even a shitbox can do 100kph and hitting a solid object at that speed, well its really only a miracle that you survive. And if you look at it a different way older cars arent as safe as newer ones so really in a way you are putting lives at risk that way.
How about instead of lowering the age of being able to drink, why not make it a zero blood alcohol reading when driving...then no has the excuse of not knowing if they were over.
In regards to putting up the age to 18 all that does is delay the drivers training...doesnt matter what age you start you generally start at the bottom. starting at 18 isnt going to make you a better driver and attitude wise probaly worse!
Scare tactics are one of my favourite.....park a smashed car in front of high school to remind them of what can happen. but then the parents would complain it was traumatising there kids...
so really it all boils down to .....nothing will help so get used to it!
Unless someone knows how to change a persons attitude?
Cameron
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They do driver education with showing us smashed cars and video's. Something that should change is allowing a learner driver to drive at 100 with their parents and not just with a driving instructor. You need to know how to drive at speed. My mum actually let me take it up to almost 150 on a straight quiet road for a few seconds to get a feel for it and then not be tempted to do it on my own. I agree with advanced driving courses, I want to undertake one.
Race tracks like Mallalla should open their gates and allow people do drive in a relatively safe environment.
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I totally agree PF....a learner driver on a major highway doing 80kph is just a traffic hazard! and it can only be beneficial to the driver.
I dont see why places cant be setup around the place e.g. drag strips and race tracks for people to cut sick at....You cant and will never be able to stop them so you might as well make it a safe environment for them to do it in.
and again it can only be beneficial for the driver..
i used to race speedway and i owe a lot of my driving skill to that as your brakes are useless on a mud track and it teaches you to recover your car if you happen to lose control.
it is my experiance at the speedway that saved me today infact.... Driving a 10tonne truck for work down a white metal road i hit a moss covered part of the road and the truck started to get crossed up....now the natural reaction for people is to jump on the brakes, which only stuffs you up further. I was able to regain control of the truck and not get hurt because of these skills i learnt...
And PF although it probaly is a good thing that you learn to control your car at high speeds i wouldnt really publicise the fact that you did it on a public road...lol
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Dont have an issue with restricting power to weight ratios..... But dropping the age wont achieve much. They still need to learn what descisions need to be made..... and a lot of that only comes from experience.
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:lol: Camo, Im not helping the stero-type am I :-P
But getting it done means I am not tempted to do it on my own in a dangerous place.
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yeah i know exactly what you mean.
How about we make cars out of "nerf" People can drive as fast as they want and never hurt themselves.
hahaha
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It doesn't matter what is provided...there is always access to burn out pads and speedways but it's not the same as them speeding on the roads...
I am a big fan of the new hoon laws..wonder if it's making much impact on the accident stats..
you guys are right though...if someone wants to speed..they can make even the oldest Datsun 120Y go faster than it was built for! :-D
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You will never stop the driver age issue or the problem with speed and power of a car. I don't know how many times this come's up around the place and wish there was a easy answer but its not getting into those THICK HEADS out there.
I sure as hell would love to have a film crew follow us from start to stop at some of the MVA'S that we have and just show all that is done.. None of this you can't show this and you can't do that.I also dislike the road side markers that show where someone has been killed,why should we as emergency service workers have to be reminded of what took place there. If we look at our road sides in our area how many have little spots have a photo of someone who was killed there or that a statue has been put there.
I know people have the right to grieve but is not these spots also a traffic hazard as people look at what is on the side of a road.
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I would like to see safety factors cheaper such as bucket seats and harnesses. Many racing car drivers are saved from massive injuries cause of their seats that hold them in the car and wrap around them. Also in built roll cages (maybe not as expansive as WRC or V8 Supercars) but still some roll cages installed. Also with the seat harnesses there is no need for airbags as you are held right there in the seat, making it safer for Emergency Crews.
As for curbing power limits, I disagree. Driving is a fun thing to do when safe and having a powerful car add's to that enjoyment as long as it isnt taken too far. I learnt to drive in a V8 commodore and that was real good to learn in a powerful car (had trouble with the accelerator when first started as was used to a V6 :-P) as you learn how to control the power. Many racing drivers feel much safer on the track doing 250km/h than driving on public roads, I think a lot more track things should be crossed over to the road. The hoons think its a racetrack anyway so you cant not make them think it isnt so adding a lot of racing safety might help, but just remember what filtered Johnson said "It's a road not a race track."
(still remember that quote from years ago when he said it.)
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Road cars are not race cars and harnesses are just not practical. Tell me how you can drive a road car with a harness on and be able to look over your shoulder to check your blind spot?or drive a truck and reverse with a harness on??
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Modified road car harnesses, maybe not install a 5 point harness. People complained about seat belts when they were installed.
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raising driver age wont do a thing to prevent road crash, all it will do is raise the unemployment level...
also IMO safety systems are not the answer either, driver education is... perhaps compulsory defensive driving courses incorporated in learner permits and exposure to footage of road crashes is the answer...
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We get that.
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My sister is going through her L stage now.. I looked through what they do (log book) and there is No defensive driver course outside of the Log book, no real Education on what cars will do in an accident and no real way of following up that the P plater will drive as instructed afterwards...
Many years ago i completed a 4 day Defensive Driver training course, wich included offensive tactics in a situation where you had to take over an out of control car. (Which included advanced uses of ABS).. This was one of the most edcational things I have ever done.. ANd... dropped a point off my insurance and lowered the premium..
They showed photos of accidents, showed what happens to car in accidents, took you out for a heap of practical driving.. and not in tiny cars either.. These were full size fmaily cars so you can see what larger vehicles are like.. and one of the most important things.. would have been ABS.. - for those that have used it, the first time you almost completely take your foot off the pedal thinking your are going to break something in the car!
Any way... I dont think increasing the age limit will help.. Current safety restraints are doing there job.. (When worn!!) .. I think education and followup teaching is the key !
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Education is the answer it needs to be hard hitting and look at restrictions on what size motor one can drive. But in the end its up to all road users to use commonsense when on the road. Hoon laws well they work to a point but what about the hoons that get caught more than once or twice and get the car back and off they go again. It also comes down to the courts they need to enforce the law all the way and not just chop and choose who gets the hard treatment and who gets the soft treatment.This does happen and it should not.....
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Did anyone see the MVA on the news last night...young people, one from the back killed, two in the front critical...obvious from the state of the car..TOO MUCH SPEED. How can these kids get the message?
and the poor parents get to look on and wonder what they should have done to prevent it...how many times would they have pounded their heads about driving within the speed limit...I feel sorry for those left behind when the result is from such stupidity. :x
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Did anyone see the MVA on the news last night...young people, one from the back killed, two in the front critical...obvious from the state of the car..TOO MUCH SPEED. How can these kids get the message?
and the poor parents get to look on and wonder what they should have done to prevent it...how many times would they have pounded their heads about driving within the speed limit...I feel sorry for those left behind when the result is from such stupidity. :x
A quote I was told many years ago is "if an accident happens, 7 people are affected for every injured person". I would increase affected people by an accident to include emergency crews, hospital, rehabilitation, work, community, etc, etc
I understand five people injured and if this is true, I am sad for the 35 people immeidately affected by this one accident.
But also to the many extras affected.
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I agree that upping the driving age won't change anything, they are still learner drivers. As emergency responders, it would be safe ti say that the majority of MVA's we go to are a result of people breaking the law, or driving fatigued. As such, changing the law will only hurt the thousands of responsible drivers, the hoons will still hoon. It really comes down to driver attitude, and whats socially acceptable. In my social circles, its not really acceptable to drive without a seatbelt, but its ok to speed. I don't know how to change it...
I heard a doctor mention this, and don't know how true it is, but apparently when Ireland changed the max blood alcohol from 0.05 to zero, road accident injuries dropped by 40% in 3 months. Thats a good drop.....
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IN Hawaii the alchohol limit is 0.08, seems fairly high.
I think people have a bad view of learner drivers that is a bit unjustified, when I was on L's absolutely everyone had to get past me and even now when I drove on the speed limit I am always the slowest person on the road. Older "more experienced" drivers have as much problems as P platers do I reckon. All ages need to take ocurses on safety.
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Should we look at renewal courses or tests for driver licenses ?
Has an emergency worker I have to renew my qualifications every 5 years. The elderly get re-tested every year, I believe. Do truck drivers have to re-test ?
Why not everyone do a license re-test every ten years when driver license is renewed ?
If you failed first renewal test, be allowed to get some lessons and re-sit test in ?? months. Fail second test and go back to P plates after more lessons.
I certainly pickup some bad driving habits over time (one hand on steering wheel instead of two hands) What do you think......
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no truck drivers do not need to sit a licence test unless they are going up a class.
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I was called to a minor MVA one morning that turned out to be one of my workmates (he hit a stobie at low speed by himself), thankfully minor he blew .21 on the breatho, he got a $1200 fine and 18months license suspension, yet on the telly the other day a Young driver admitted to driving without due care causing a death and was fined $700 and had his license suspended for 8months, honestly wheres the justice and the deterrent for young people to stop driving like knobs??? We need harsher penalties (that are enforced) for all drivers if you don't comply then say goodbye to you license for 5 years????
Whether harsher enforced penalties would work i don't know but maybe keep the driver age of 16 the same but have them on a tighter leash for longer (less demerit points etc...). :|
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Time the law and those that have the job of dishing out the punishment all got their act together and all sentencing was the same should not matter if you are male or female....
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I agree with the harsher penalties but honestly, how many does it stop from actually driving when they don't have a licence?? :?
I used to work for a Job Network and the amount of clients who drove without a licence would have nearly outweighed those who did.
How often do you hear that the person was driving unlicenced and unregistered?? and the penalty..a slap with a wet fish.. :-(
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Does it matter if you are male or female?
Driving at 16 is fine because sitting in the seat next to you is your mum or dad or an experienced driving instructor most of the time. It is their role to tech the Learner the correct way to drive. I think too much blame is put on younger drivers when it is older drivers that have problems as well, youse were all young drivers too once and how many of youse even had P's for more than a month or two? Its like when a police man came to the school last year to talk about driving and was talking to old folks and they said we are the biggest drug takers etc, but there the ones popping pill's everyday and night. :-P
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I would agree that older drivers are worse drivers than younger ones... Probably over half don't indicate enough, and its usually older drivers that tailgate me. (Has anyone else noticed that 4WD drivers tailgate chronically?) How often do you see an 'L plater' who's been rear ended for going too slow? Too often IMO.
The problem with Younger drivers is that they driver irresponsibly, not badly.
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If people want to drive without lisences then throw them in jail, they will learn pretty quickly when they're behind bars..... :evil:
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We just park tow trucks in front of people who drive without licenses... its stops them rather well...
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If people want to drive without licenses then throw them in jail, they will learn pretty quickly when they're behind bars..... :evil:
You can go to jail for using an illegal version of Microsoft Windows, but does that stop you? :evil:
IMO harsher punishments will only hurt the responsible people (or the semi responsible in this case :P)
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I have heard this argument at brigade level about various things, driving, what age is appropriate for attending fire calls etc etc. End of the day each individual has a choice of being an idiot and making the wrong choices or following the rules and doing the right thing by everyone. I got my licence when i was 16 and I know people who were my age being idiots but also people who were 30 driving just the same and they had a licence for nearly 15 years. go figure, it doesn't matter what the age is people will drive the way their head is telling them.
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We just park tow trucks in front of people who drive without licenses... its stops them rather well...
indeed it does...