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General Discussion => CFS Cadet Corner => Topic started by: rescue5271 on January 04, 2005, 12:52:59 PM

Title: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on January 04, 2005, 12:52:59 PM
For sometime now I have felt that our CFS cadet's are being left out of CFS role's that they where allowed to do. The introduction of what they can or can't do has made it hard for those that train these young members and in many cases cadets are leaving because the fun has gone out of the CFS.
 
So tell me what do other people think about cadet's,do they still belong or are they being left out of things so as to remove cadet's from the CFS ???
Title: Fire Service Cadets vs Youth Centre
Post by: kat on January 04, 2005, 02:40:34 PM
We had a few interested cadets who, I think, enjoyed training with the seniors more than when they were moved to a separate programme with less emphasis on fire related stuff. There was a lot of good work done by Tracy in ESAU in youth programs but it introduced a plethora of rules and regs and was generic and I consider more suited to a youth organisation than a fire service junior unit. It also caused a bit of a stir by sometimes seeming in conflict with our own services act, regs and SOPs. Our cadets are virtually now non existant - waiting to come back as firies at 16 as some have already done.
Title: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: corocfs on January 27, 2005, 10:22:39 PM
i was a cadet for severla years and (luckily) became a fire fighter before they introduced many of the current rules about what cadets can and cannot do. weve had many of our cadets visibly lose a lot of interest in what they do since theyre not allowed to attend burnoffs or use RCR or HAZMAT gear. this takes out a lot of the fun that cadets are allowed to have. we havent had any resignations, but the loss in interest has been noticeable.

does anybody have any thoughts on wether the age of graduation from cadet to firefighter should be changed to 18?

our group has recently been having discussions about wether cadets are mature enough to join a brigade and attend incidents at the age of 16. not only do we have 16year olds that are not physically big enough wanting to attend incidents, but we also have 15 year olds that have birthdays coming up soon wanting to join brigades and they are quite definitely not mature enough in the way they act.

i know a brigade holds the right to prevent people from joining, but i feel age restriction to 18 may have its merits, because after all theses younger firefighters (under the age of 18) are not legally adults, and yet they are sometimes made to make descisions that may endanger there fellow crew members of members of the public.

any thoughts?
Title: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Mike on February 21, 2005, 06:14:14 AM
I could be wrong.... but the last i heard the brigade had the option of delaying the transition to a firie????? A good thing if maturity is of concern.

Anyways,

Having started at my brigade as a cadet, it has been interesting to see all the different rules and regs come through. Its come full circle since then, and im now also assisting in training the cadets.

The thing that most disapoints the cadets in our area is that they have joined to learn how to fight a fire, but thanks to the very few who dont put their brain into gear before acting, are now told fire (and almost everything else) is  "out of bounds"

Kind of defeats the purpose for them really.

As the future of the service, we should be giving them controlled exposure to what we do. It keeps them interested, and by the time they become firefighters, are well prepared to do the job......

There is a place.... we just need to sort out where that place should be....!

Cheers,
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: joejarman on May 25, 2005, 03:03:32 AM
well i am in alabama so i will say this our fire dept keeps us busy down here but we always have some kind of fun wheather it be sharing a storie from another fd on what some one said but otherwise let me know if you want some suggestions
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on June 02, 2005, 07:03:47 PM
To be honest, I think the move to change what they "can and can't do" is for the better.


Burnoffs for example.  I have seen them get out of hand with Fire Fighters running them, and believe they are no task for a cadet.  I agree the age of Fire fighter should be lifted to 18, despite what others may think, I belong to a brigade that is extremely busy, and attends a wide magnitude of calls, and frankly, after myself being a F/F at the age of 16, dont think those under 18 can honestly be mentally ready, or "experienced" for some situations.

But, we have to argue weather these things could make the youth of Australia less interested in CFS....   At the end of the day, I think it will be a lose lose situation.  Its either, take away things to keep them safer - making them lose interest, or give them these things, allowing them to experience things they shouldnt...

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: CyberCitizen on June 06, 2005, 10:33:47 AM
I Think The Age Bracket Of 16 Is Fine.  I Do Think That The Brigade Needs To Make The Descision As I Still Believe They Still Have To Be Voted In By The Members.

I Think It Depends On The Person But The Person In Charge On The Job Needs To Remember That The Young Firey Might Not Be Able To Handle What They See/Experience, So Giving Them A Job Like Traffic Gives Them The Sense Of Involvement.  This Is Until They Are Ready.  Keep In Mind These Are My Views & Are Directed At RCR.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on June 08, 2005, 05:00:03 PM
I do see what you are saying, but then you are taking some one to the job who you already know can;t totally fulfill the duties that may be required.  EG.  What if the duties requires them to see somehting they shouldnt!?   Having someone there, and taking a seat on a truck, who can "only" do traffic, is to me a little silly.

But i do understand what you mean, my alternative is they shouldnt go at all, untill deemed "capable", or "able" to handle what they may see / have to do etc.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: CyberCitizen on June 08, 2005, 05:07:37 PM
But What If They Could Handle It Eg Not Yet, But After A Few Callouts They Can.  Eg It Could Be Classed As On The Job Training.

They Might Be Uneasy Or Unsure To Start With But After A Few They Become Used To It.  Without Them Attendings Scenes There Is No Way For Them To Get On The Job Training.  There Is Only So Much That Can Be Done At Trainings Sessions.

Eg You Start Them With Traffic So They Get Used To The Way Things Run, As They Start Learning More & More They Move On Into Other Things, While Getting Older & Mature At The Same Time.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Firefrog on June 08, 2005, 06:34:30 PM
Vehicle accidents or structure fires with persons reported are no place for young people. I remember Jill Scott saying once that it's unlikely that any person younger than 21 has attained the type of maturity and coping skills required to attend such an incident. I attended my first three fatalities when I was eighteen and all within one week ( I'm only slightly crazy) :-D -
Although I coped fine I still agree with Jill.

However I have trained many younger people who are ready to attend grass fires and other less stressful incidents. It comes down to the individuals skill, maturity and willingness to learn and also the confidence the leadership of the brigade has in the person. I don't think it's a matter of policy, but an informed & considered decision on which incidents a specific individual should or should not attend.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Good times on June 09, 2005, 11:05:55 AM
There is a minimum age so lets stick to it, we all had to wait when we were cadets so lets just leave it that.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on June 09, 2005, 03:38:24 PM
Vehicle accidents or structure fires with persons reported are no place for young people. I remember Jill Scott saying once that it's unlikely that any person younger than 21 has attained the type of maturity and coping skills required to attend such an incident. I attended my first three fatalities when I was eighteen and all within one week ( I'm only slightly crazy) :-D -
Although I coped fine I still agree with Jill.

However I have trained many younger people who are ready to attend grass fires and other less stressful incidents. It comes down to the individuals skill, maturity and willingness to learn and also the confidence the leadership of the brigade has in the person. I don't think it's a matter of policy, but an informed & considered decision on which incidents a specific individual should or should not attend.

I understand what you are saying, but personally believe, if you can't do the whole job, you shouldnt be doing it at all.

What if you are mobile to a grass fire with one of the members who is "only ready for grassys" , and you get diverted to a double fatality, with 2 persons still trapped?   ....   Again, if not capable, either physically or mentally of doing the whole job, should not be doing it at all, untill ready.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Mike on June 09, 2005, 04:34:02 PM
Training is an aid to TRY to best prepare people for situations they may encounter. I agree that there there is an age limit for dealing with vehicle accidents. However saying they cant go to any callouts until they are ready for anything would mean that some people would never get to a call.

- 1. very disheartening for anyone wanting to be part of the service.

- 2. what about the people who know that they dont want to be involved in any RCR incidents.

The problem is that when we start saying you cant do something until you get experience.... is that you cant get experience until you do it!

Your wouldn't send a completely green crew to a strike team, nor would you make someone deal directly with a car at their first accident.

But protecting them from potential harm while letting them take part is an important thing. i have no problem with taking a 16yo to a fire... like wise to an accident. Diffenece being, I would let them help fight the fire...... I wouldnt let them go near the an accident..... traffic is an important part of our safety and is done a safe distance from the scene to be able to get an overall picture of whats happening with out having it "in your face"

Just think how did you really get to understand everything you do now? Was it all through training, or out there giving it a go?

Firefrog really said all that needs to be said. In the end we need to make an informed and considered descision based on the person...... just be sure that its EVERYTHING thats been considered.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Good times on June 09, 2005, 04:42:47 PM
Hence the reason for age limits in regards to wether or not you take someone, half the descision is made for you, and in regards to people not going to every incident we attend, not every station has that luxury, someone might be petrified of attending MVA's but is an ace firefighter when it comes to grassy's and structure fires, if your struggling for numbers (lets face it, we all are) then take them on, its the very nature of our organisation (I am not saying take on any Joe off the streets because some people clearly shouldn't be in the CFS).
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: corocfs on June 09, 2005, 10:02:15 PM
once in the service though, everyone has differant capabilities.

but at the end of the day it is the officer in charge of the truck who decides who gets on... besides even at an MVA with two trapped and blood everywhere.. someone still has to do traffic control (away from the "hot zone")...
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: oz fire on June 10, 2005, 08:56:29 AM
Age is only ONE factor. Maturity is another and then there's personal coping mechanisms/circumstances. They all vary and therefore it is ultimately the officers call - thats why they are the officer - they need to take the responsability for their decisions.

I know many long serving fire fighters who won't work in the hot zone at an MVA, the officers respect this and task them appropriately - there is a role for everyone, and until we are all flushed with members we need to accept that and work accordingly.

There is a duty of care for everyone, regardless of age, race, sex or alike, hence we need to be mindful of each individual and take them on their merit :-)
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: CyberCitizen on June 10, 2005, 12:59:31 PM
That Is One Of The First Things We Are Told When Joining.  Eg If You Respond To An MVA & You Don't Feel Right With The Blood & So What Let The OIC Know So That They Can Assign You Another Task.  Traffic Control Is Usally The Default Option.

Everyone Have Raised Great Points & They Are One's That Need To Be Considered.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: TillerMan on August 04, 2005, 02:32:36 PM
I am a cadet leader and i know the frustrations involved with the new rules on what cadets can and can't do eg: burnoff's.
Another issue is the age of going on the truck even after they are 16. For example we had a female cadet who moved up to firefighter at the age of 16, we were told by the cadet staff member ( can't remember the new one's name) that she could only go on the truck if there was two other female's over the age of 18 on the truck??? Her reason was that one of the female's may have to be incident controller or sector commander.
We nicely told her that it won't happen, but I guess it is a big issue these days with sexual abuse and the like.
It isn't much incouragement for female's to join the service if they are restricted like this right from the point of joining!!!
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 04, 2005, 03:30:58 PM
Thats right,  strangely enough, the rule also applies for blokes,  (EG - If under the age of 18, and its an all femaile crew, there needs to be 2 Males on the truck as " Carers " so to speak, of the person underage.  Altho, due to this being such a rare occurance, it has never come up.

I think it all boils down to OHS&W,  and sometimes, the legislation makes things harder than actually helping....
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on August 05, 2005, 01:16:15 AM
I think that the thing about having two other people of the same sex is stupid, even though it might be a policy that CFS has made sometimes its just impossible to have that kind of thing happen in some brigades.
Some brigades only have a couple of females and they dont always show up for a job, so therefore if you put this thing into place then the person wouldnt be able to ride the truck to jobs very often and more than likely they will get bored quickly and you will lose memebers.
My brigade is very active with cadets and as I am a supervisor and was a cadet at one stage, I know that all of the officers that take a job are very careful with taking a young cadet who has just come up but I dont think any of them even know about this same sex thing as I have never heard about it before and I have been a supervisor for about 5yrs
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 05, 2005, 11:29:30 AM
There is no doubting that officers or other members take care of the younger people, but at the end of the day, a policy is a policy.

And totally agree with you about people not being able to get on the truck, therefor they will lose interest and leave the service.  Its a problem, no doubt,   which goes back to my comment on some rules making things harder than helping.  But at the end of the day, it is a safety net that is provided, for the greater good.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: TillerMan on August 05, 2005, 05:52:11 PM
Yes, it was when the state cadet co-ordinator first started so i think she was trying to do and say the right thing but backed off when we told her how impossible that would be.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: corocfs on August 08, 2005, 09:35:37 AM
hate to say it, but all the comments about having to have "carers" for female and male members under the age of 18.. (at least i think thats what is being said), these are just good arguments for CFS to raise its joining age to 18.

anyone under 18 isnt a legal adult..
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 08, 2005, 11:19:25 AM
Thats when some common sense should be used tho.  How many years has it been done the way it has been ???   Then political nonsense makes its way to the table, and we have to change everything and do things differently to suit the do-gooders...

I apologise if that may seem controversial, but i'm sick of people (weather it be politicians, ohs, who-ever) making things more difficult and too involved, by bringing in useless legislation etc.   Sure, some of the legislation or rules, acts, what ever you want to call them, are great.  But there are some real no-brainers as well.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 08, 2005, 11:22:56 AM
Sorry for the second post.

Prime example,† who decided cadets could not attend burn-offs ???

I attended some fantastic burn-offs as a cadet, you would look forward to the evening.† These activites kept you interested in the service!† But no, not for long, some one decided it was "Too" dangerous.†

With proper supervision by fire fighters and cadet supervisors, smaller scale burnoffs etc are a fantastic way to show the young ones about simple fire behaviour and to keep them interested in the service.

I am also a cadet supervisor, and wish I was able to show some of the cadets what I experienced.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: CyberCitizen on August 08, 2005, 12:25:20 PM
Couldn't You Just Edit Your Last Post?
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Mike on August 08, 2005, 05:12:43 PM
I believe the reason cadets are not allowed to attend burnoffs, is because some bright spark firefigter set themself on fire tipping fuel onto the burn...... at a cadet night. Not something cadets should be seeing! (of a FF should be doing for that matter!)
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 09, 2005, 11:16:20 AM
So one incident ruins it for the rest of them...

(Praying that F/F now knows NOT to tip fuel onto a live burn.......!!)


Its little things like that, and others, that make it so much harder to keep the younger generations interested in programs like Cadets.  They have more fun sitting at home watching TV, so why would they want to come out on a cold night, in a cold station, doing .... not alot....
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on August 09, 2005, 05:51:00 PM
We have got almost 20 cadets although we dont let them go to burn off, we still do some live fire training with them (like extinguishers). As long as you have the correct amount of supervision then it is fine.
As for this been the only thing keeping cadets interested I dont think that is true. None of our cadets have ever complained about it been boring because we dont do alot of live fire.
If you attended the Cadet supervisor weekend that they had with the scouts then you should know how to keep them entertained for the night. We keep our cadets entertained for alomost 2hrs every week and we have never had a problem. Plus most of the cadets that leave, leave for other reasons not because they are bored
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: kat on August 09, 2005, 07:12:27 PM
An acting training officer in our Region told a meeting that the two female crew rule applied but when I challenged him backed down after trying to find evidence to support the statement. He told me that it was not official policy but a very sensible rule that all Brigades should adopt. Now shock, horror, some of the Brigades to the East and North of me have no female members over the age of 18. They were extremely concerned that anyone should suggest that these young women should be disallowed from turning out for two years.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on August 10, 2005, 11:22:19 AM
We have got almost 20 cadets although we dont let them go to burn off, we still do some live fire training with them (like extinguishers). As long as you have the correct amount of supervision then it is fine.
As for this been the only thing keeping cadets interested I dont think that is true. None of our cadets have ever complained about it been boring because we dont do alot of live fire.
If you attended the Cadet supervisor weekend that they had with the scouts then you should know how to keep them entertained for the night. We keep our cadets entertained for alomost 2hrs every week and we have never had a problem. Plus most of the cadets that leave, leave for other reasons not because they are bored

I was pushing the point a little over the top, but was trying to put forward how much harder it is these days.  There are always things that can be done to keep the kids entertained, weather it be comps training, to watching a CFS related DVD.  I still think back to the days, when things seemed so much easier.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on August 11, 2005, 06:13:53 PM
OK then fair enough, I will agree that when I was a cadet things used to be so much easier because there wasnt any of these OHS things in place, were as now if you want to do something you have to do a risk assesment and we all know that they suck
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: jameswillcourt on November 23, 2005, 05:52:45 PM
As a cadet i feel that yes some cadets may not be mature enough at 16 to become fully fledged firefighters but i have seen many a 20+ year old people gain entry into brigades, whom i beleive to be no more mature than a 12 year old with the mental capacity to match.
I have been a cadet for 3 years now and have developed the opinion that the best training sesions that i have been to have all involved fire.
But i beleive that raising the joining age to 18 will only lower the number of younger members joining
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on November 24, 2005, 10:46:21 AM
How true James I dont think the people at the top care too much about retaining cadets,there is only so much none CFS stuff that one can do in a small town. I know our cadets did enjoy going to burn offs as well as being involved in some brigade training. But someone in the white castle did not like it and because a few(small group) did something wrong they stuffed it up for all....
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: TillerMan on November 24, 2005, 02:29:41 PM
The cadet numbers are growing all the time so i think HQ needs to put way more money and time into them because we are all struggling for crews and the more keen they stay the more likely they are to step up to firefighters later.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: oz fire on November 25, 2005, 08:34:28 AM
I thought the SAFECOM Volunteer Management branch was looking after cadets and implementing programs on behalf of the different services - they were also looking into the legal aspects, OH&S, child welfare and alike.
I guess they like most in the staff side have extra ordinary workloads and when they are only a small team they need to spread them selves across many, many areas.

At least now there are organised functions - cadet camps, workshops and cadet coordinators - a huge step forward from a few years ago when it was left to brigades to manage on their own.

You only need to look at the CFS comps - the majority is now Cadets - not fire fighters  :-D
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on November 25, 2005, 09:26:06 AM
True ozfire,but cadets in the country are stilling missing out beacuse they dont have access to so called places to go or things to do.Sure we have ohsw and child welfare but cadets need to be involved in burn off's and some live firefighting but also should be able to help out at brigade training by being a patient in RCR,or cave ,training.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on November 25, 2005, 01:27:15 PM
from my personal experience with cadets. They dont need live fire training or going to burn offs to keep them, We do live fire (extinguishers) every say 6months but other than that our cadets dont get to see muchlive fire and they enojoy it, we do lose some cadets but from what I have heard its not from being bored.

As for joining in on Adult training as casualties I dont see why they cant, I know we dont do it but im sure if we wanted to we prob would.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: PF_ on January 04, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
In reply to younger people being exposed to horrific scene's such as an MVA and being able to deal with it or not, does BFF1 training have a course where people are made aware of the scenes that will be encountered as a CFS firefighter, e.g pictures?† (I have not done BFF1 yet so am unsure as to what you learn there) Also we do virtually exactly the same job's as the Mets yet anyone can join whatever their age, sex, race etc.† This is a really good thing for the community but shouldnt there be some forms of psychological tests to make sure people are aware and can handle the situation they are putting themselves into.†

the catch 22 side to that is if the CFS implement rules like that then volunteer number's will drop which is already a concern as I understand.† I dont mean to offend anyone or seem prejudiced as I myself have not experienced any of this but just a thought...

I joined the CFS shortly after turning 16 and as I would like to join the MFS joining at 16 is a good age as you can get some good experience about life as a firefighter.

My thought's only
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on January 04, 2006, 11:07:04 AM
^^  I agree with various testing being required.  I think at least a psych test should be mandatory... Mental capacity is such a crucial factor when dealing with emergencies... Not to mention, I would rather not be in a tent on a strike team with a deranged psychopathic axe murderer who didn't have to do psych testing   !! 
*General fitness testing should also be somehow implemented...*



I think it should be up to brigade discretion about the 16 - 18 age.  I know plenty of 16 - 20 year olds who are good Fire fighters, and good operators, and know plenty of 30/40+ aged members who should take a lesson from their junior counterparts... 

On the flip side, there are plenty of 16/17/18 year old cadets who need to stay there untill they are in their mid 20's and develop enough maturity before being allowed on the fire ground.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: CyberCitizen on January 04, 2006, 12:51:18 PM
Its One Of Those Sliding Scales I Think. You Should Have The Option To Come Up, However You Have To Be Voted In By The Bridage, That Way Its The Bridage That Make The Descion Regarding If Your Ready To Handle Whats Involved.

As For The BFF1 & MVA Photos, Can't Say I Saw Any One My Course.

Wasn't There Something Mentioned Regarding General Fitness On Here A Little While Ago, I Think There Should Be A Strike Team/Task Force Register & For You to Put Your Name On That You Have To Under Take Some Basic Testing (Fitness, Skills).

Normal CFS Members I Think Would Be Hard As I Believe We Would Loose Quite A Few Members, But For Deployment Else Where I Think You Need To Have Some Basic Fitness.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: medevac on January 04, 2006, 06:50:52 PM
P_F

there is no way of de-sensitizing people to these kind of things. its something that has to be experienced..
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: PF_ on January 04, 2006, 08:51:09 PM
I'd say youre right medevac, I have never dealt with anything like an MVA before.  In fact Im doing my level 1 this weekend so have not dealt with any CFS call-outs.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on January 04, 2006, 10:21:44 PM
I agree medevac there is no way at all you can do anything to help ppl b prepared for what they may c when responding to an MVA, even if you have looked at pics its still nothing until you get to the job and c all the ppl around ambos, cops ect.

As for all this talk about making ppl doing test i think that is just stupid, its a volunteer service so you dont have to go to an MVA if you dont want to, there is no point making volunteers do a test to c if they are good enough for the CFS. As for working alongside an axe murderer it prob wouldnt happen because we do have police checks which would prob come back saying something like that so you wouldnt let them into your brigade.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: kat on January 06, 2006, 09:28:10 AM
A good Brigade will introduce you gently to the unsavoury sights where possible and give you the opportunity to become involved in different ways as you become more aware.

MVA's are stationary (unlike going to a raging bush fire) and therefore you may have some choice about where you actually fit into the scene and what you actually see. I prefer for all new members regardless of age to work around the periphery in traffic control and the many other things that need doing. Even providing fire cover can be at the pump or the hose/extinguisher may not be where you can see all. Members come closer to the "inner circle" as they feel comfortable. And perhaps at an incident with less shocking injuries to begin with.

And we have really good support services available to members as well.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: mengcfs on January 06, 2006, 10:06:20 AM
And don't forget it's not only MVA's that may affect people.  A raging bush fire may be seen as the norm to many but it may frighten the hell out of others.  I know of people who have contacted our wonderful SPAM team in relation to bushfires and the effect it has had on them.  Looking a raging bushfire in the face may be all that is needed to trigger the emotions of what they may have seen at another job.

Adam.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Sam on January 08, 2006, 11:54:45 AM
Hi All,

I was nearly 17 when i went to my first fatal. In my brigade the officers make the decisions about what you should and shouldn't be involved in. I trust their decision on this. When we arrived we could see it was fatal and i was told to go and operate the pump in order to get out of sight. Later on one of the officers ask me if i would like to go for a walk and see what all the action was about!
It would be very nice if everyone could have an intro like that!
As for Cadet joining age i think it is normally a decision by the cadet and brigade officers. Cadets do not see much "action" but our bunch of cadets are pretty much there just to socialise, like scouts i surpose!

Sam
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: medevac on January 08, 2006, 12:57:50 PM
hmmm yeah it is good to keep younger people away from the "HOT ZONE" is it still called that?

neway... not too sure about asking you if ya wanted to see it afterwards (presumably the body had been taken away ?)

presonally if i were you i would look at as few dead bodies as possible.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on January 08, 2006, 01:58:16 PM
I dont have a problem taking younger members to MVA'S just  give them a job away from the action,as for looking after the job is done that is fine as long as the body is gone and that way the younger member will have some idea of what took place....

blinky bill
naracoorte
MY VIEW ONLY
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Fire_Rescue96 on January 08, 2006, 07:23:12 PM
I think that it is good to ask the younger members after if they would like to go and have a look, as for the body been removed i think that the person should b given the option of seeing it if hey want, if you are in a high MVA area then they will c it eventually. If they choose not to go look then that is their choice. I got asked to go have a look at my first fatal and the bodies were there but i didnt, as i felt i wasnt ready to c it, so i think it is up to the person if they want to look b4 or after the body has been removed
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: strikeathird on January 08, 2006, 10:44:13 PM
I was at my first MVA rescue at 16...  Spose some people aren't as bothered by it.  Personally I think it is up to the individual at jobs like that, if they don't feel ready, don't pressure them...  However, at the same time, if they seem ready and able, and you see the after effects of 'Post Traumatic Stress" or such symptoms on a person, be the first to offer assistance / spam counscelling.


I have seen alot of things in different forms of Fire and Rescue, and other agencies I have been involved in...  And I don't care what people say, no matter how often, or how many you go to, jobs like that always affect you in some way...   Even if that means thinking about it afterwards...   The little things all add up.  Which is why we have departments like SPAM...  Don't feel scared, or like a wuss if you need to use them.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Master of Disaster on February 02, 2007, 10:37:56 PM
Hi Guys and Girls,

SES cadets become operational at 18 but fire fighting is more dangerous then being an ses member!  Thanks 8-)
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: SA Firey on February 03, 2007, 08:58:59 AM
Hi Guys and Girls,

SES cadets become operational at 18 but fire fighting is more dangerous then being an ses member!  Thanks 8-)

SES always out on a limb :lol:
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Cadet1234 on June 16, 2007, 11:02:34 PM
i am a cadet at the happy valley brigade and i would love to go to burn offs and stuff like that but apparently you have to have level 1 or something to even be allowed to go to a burnoff
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: 5271rescue on June 17, 2007, 08:19:14 PM
That is correct,may be you guys should do BFF1 cadet units in the south east do it....
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: fireblade on June 18, 2007, 12:37:19 AM
 The whole cadet thing is a sticky issue especially meeting all the legal stuff to make sure youíre covered i.e. following procedures, police checks, and minimum levels of adult to cadet numbers. CFS is not unique as I use to coach a team of kids in soccer and the club went through the whole thing before CFS did, but in saying that I think it is a good thing as the protection of children is paramount.

In my opinion and many of my peers, I think 16 is too young for a fire fighter I think it should be 18. Also you should limit there exposure to nasty prangs and structures that have fatalities for a year or two (20, 21).

 I use to think the same as some have said ďI went to those sorts of jobs when I was young and Iím fineĒ. A few years ago I saw a mate of mine get a depressed by all the nasty jobs over the years and it just got too much.

So when you have experts like Jill Scott saying itís to young and a lot of fire fighters that are paid and CFS that double their exposure to nasty jobs saying itís too young. In my opinion I think we should listen.

I had a young F/F challenge me once when he arrived on our second appliance for fire cover and I told their OIC to hold the crew there. I said to him youíll get plenty of time to see the gore Iíve been doing it for 15 years and I donít go out of my way to see it. Plus it looks unprofessional when you've got heaps of guys all over the scene when they dont need to be.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: 5271rescue on June 18, 2007, 07:27:35 AM
I would have to disagree there,at if a cadet has come up from cadets to the main brigade we should let them attend some call outs at the direction of the brigade captain or any other officer.Having said that members under 18 years old should not attend MVA's.on the first appliances may be on the second and help with traffic duty away from the action.Remember in this day and  once young people hit 16 they want to be involved in something that is going to give them a buzz or a high. TOO many times we are saying to cadets you can't do this and you can't do that  Yes I agree we have to protect them and we also have to make sure we do all the legal stuff but at the end of teh day if cadets dont get a chance to become a firefighter at 16 then there is no point in having cadets at all..This is my view only;;;;; So people you should give these young people ago and let become firefighters at 16 with a mentor from the brigade. I thinks sometime we forget that in the city areas there is lots of fun stuff for cadets to do but once you get out to the country there is not much. Cadets are our future of this service and in many country towns they are the next leaders of local brigade's .
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: RescueHazmat on June 18, 2007, 12:09:21 PM
I would have to disagree there,at if a cadet has come up from cadets to the main brigade we should let them attend some call outs at the direction of the brigade captain or any other officer.Having said that members under 18 years old should not attend MVA's.on the first appliances may be on the second and help with traffic duty away from the action.Remember in this day and  once young people hit 16 they want to be involved in something that is going to give them a buzz or a high. TOO many times we are saying to cadets you can't do this and you can't do that  Yes I agree we have to protect them and we also have to make sure we do all the legal stuff but at the end of teh day if cadets dont get a chance to become a firefighter at 16 then there is no point in having cadets at all..This is my view only;;;;; So people you should give these young people ago and let become firefighters at 16 with a mentor from the brigade. I thinks sometime we forget that in the city areas there is lots of fun stuff for cadets to do but once you get out to the country there is not much. Cadets are our future of this service and in many country towns they are the next leaders of local brigade's .

I guess its an area for debate, however I disagree with disallowing the members (as you mentioned being 16+) to MVA's .. - There are many roles they can undertake without having to be in the 'thick' of it..  When a majority of us started we all attended those incidents at that age, why should it be different now?

I believe if the person, and the officer think that person is capable, then it shouldnt be a problem... - & like I said, they don't have to be in the middle of the action..

MVO
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: chinabone on January 01, 2008, 12:14:09 PM
well no postd for ages. so i thought id dd 1 lol. well my first incident ever was a mva with a fatality i saw the cars but did not c the body. I think it should be up to the individual if there up to seing it or not  were all diferent
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Robert-Robert34 on January 01, 2008, 04:33:53 PM
I didnt get exposed to my first fatal accident until November 2007 and was right in the thick of the action doing fire suppression this is because Kalangadoo is a non RCR brigade

As what blinky has said theres no point of having cadets if they cant respond to callouts after turning 16, if you continue to wrap the young fire fighters up in cotton wool by not allowing them to gain experience or respond to large incidents they are gonna lose all interest   
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: chook on January 01, 2008, 05:00:39 PM
Robert you said went to you first fatal in 2007 - and then said you can't see a problem sending under 18's to jobs.
Sorry mate, but based on what? There is a reason SES has an 18 and above rule - we just like you guys are involved in potentially dangerous & horrific stuff. We don't have the time or manpower to control cadets at serious incidents. Its hard enough with trained but inexperienced adults.
We used to have cadets in my unit - not any more. Why? More time and effort was spent looking after cadets, than training the adults.That might sound harsh but adults are the rescuers, if I wanted to manage kids the I would be a scout leader :wink:
Having said that if several brigades/ units want cadets then form a cadet unit & yes VMB does have a cadet program you can tap into.
cheers
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Robert-Robert34 on January 01, 2008, 05:54:35 PM
Robert you said went to you first fatal in 2007 - and then said you can't see a problem sending under 18's to jobs.
Sorry mate, but based on what? There is a reason SES has an 18 and above rule - we just like you guys are involved in potentially dangerous & horrific stuff. We don't have the time or manpower to control cadets at serious incidents. Its hard enough with trained but inexperienced adults.
We used to have cadets in my unit - not any more. Why? More time and effort was spent looking after cadets, than training the adults.That might sound harsh but adults are the rescuers, if I wanted to manage kids the I would be a scout leader :wink:
Having said that if several brigades/ units want cadets then form a cadet unit & yes VMB does have a cadet program you can tap into.
cheers

The 18 and above rule is a good idea Chook but its really up to the OIC to determine if someone is or isnt capable of responding to a major emergency such as a RCR's cause its not a pretty sight to respond to 
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: chook on January 01, 2008, 06:13:07 PM
Yep, horses for courses & I agree its up to the Brigade/Unit boss.
And I have some idea on how bad jobs can get :wink:
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Robert-Robert34 on January 02, 2008, 12:52:46 PM
Yep, horses for courses & I agree its up to the Brigade/Unit boss.
And I have some idea on how bad jobs can get :wink:

Ditto Chook lots of jobs can go from bad to worse after arriving on scene
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on January 02, 2008, 01:40:16 PM
Getting a little of track there robert,cadets should be given every chance to do the same as the main brigade when it comes to training,cadets are the future and I think afew years ago we lost the chance to give cadets the same training as everyone else. I dont have a problem with cadets going to burn off's ONE ON ONE with a senior I think you will find that they can now do this as long as they have done BFF1. there is only so much that we are allowed to teach our cadets and in some cases some members would liek to see us turn cadets into scouts and we are not a scout unit but the CFS cadet unit....

we should welcome with open arms anyone who wishes to join cadets and we should support and show them the ropes but above all we should encourge them to move up the ranks rather.
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: chinabone on January 09, 2008, 11:51:03 AM
yea im actually still the cadet capitian for my brigade but the pepole coming up i know they still got about 2 years most of them till they are 16 (aloud on the truck).But i  wouold not feel safe with them even in 2 years.
In saying that my first incident was before i was 16 and aint 16 til end of next month.in saying that i have been a cadet for about 5 years so i know my stuf done my level one work in a team grn and a couple other courses and am doind my supress wildfire very soon.Im also a very respected member in my brigade.and organise/help with some traning activites for the newer senior members
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Dusty on February 09, 2009, 01:04:11 PM
Hey i know i just started on this website but with the cadets that i'm in we might end up training with the firerys because we only have 2-3 cadets turn up each week. :|
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: Alan (Big Al) on February 09, 2009, 01:09:17 PM
We have 2 cadets that train with us.

But they normally only do that once they get within 12 months of becoming a FF
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: chinabone on May 20, 2009, 12:29:05 PM
I think that senior cadets,What we call the ones who have done bff1 and are 15 or above should be training with the seniors.Obvisoully with pearent consent.I have noticed the 2 cadets we have brought up to senior training have excelled in there training.There is suposebly new cadet guidelines comeing out soon wich may alow cadets to wear ba and do live fire training in and array of other things
cheers Bayden
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: wombat34 on May 20, 2009, 01:58:44 PM
Think you would find that Cadets would fall under the same rules as non BA trained members in what they can/cannot do with BA. ie no actual drilling, just don/doffing. Then there is the issue of needing to be 18 for BA as well. Yet another can of worms
Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: whitecloud on May 25, 2009, 03:10:55 PM
The whole cadet thing is a sticky issue especially meeting all the legal stuff to make sure you’re covered i.e. following procedures, police checks, and minimum levels of adult to cadet numbers. CFS is not unique as I use to coach a team of kids in soccer and the club went through the whole thing before CFS did, but in saying that I think it is a good thing as the protection of children is paramount.


Exactly this. Part of the reasoning for the age restriction on BA is the structure of the spine of a growing child. While it is all well and good to say they can cope with the physical loading and the psychological issues, the fact remains that we are in an age where the medical community recognises the benefit of looking after the spine in early life.

Bit of fun, all well and good, asking them to wear weight more often and the CFS is aware of the load of litigious BS they are opening themselves up to.

On the age and attendance debate, its entirely subjective. I also was lucky enough to begin attending callouts early, and some of the accidents gave me a darn good shock and certainly reinforced why its stupid to speed or drink drive. In some cases, kids could probably deal with the lesson.

However, in my experience i have also met people at age 18 who were hopeless, and I'm not actually sure WHY they would attend calls, and constantly made a fuss over blood and needed medical treatment / peer support almost every time we went to something. The only reason they were still allowed to attend was some degree of tolerance, as a result of relations with others.

Some people will feel ready earlier, and there's nothing to say they wont benefit from the experience. However, they should be at least a little limited. I can't honestly see much of a role for a brand spanking newbie in the thick of a bad vehicle accident, perhaps standing back on fire cover. (No criticism for any of us that have been put in that position, just stating ideally a slow breakin would be better.)

Same goes for strike teams, all too often there are people with insufficient experience for larger incidents present. I have heard of a couple of examples a few years ago where cadets were taken on strike teams, one probably caused more kick up than the other (and from what it sounds like, with reason! ) Cutting teeth on smaller incidents is most certainly the way to go. That way, the brigade can check what is actually known, rather than be thrown in the deep end with someone they have to compensate for.



Title: Re: what is going on with cadets?
Post by: rescue5271 on May 29, 2009, 08:22:30 AM
It was great this week while working in other parts of the state for work to hear how strong cadets are in some area's in the HILL'S but it was also interesting to hear about the problems that they have about what cadets can or cant do. But brigades and groups all agree that cadets in rural areas are the future and we need to ensure that we keep them involved and active as long as we can....