SA Firefighter

Special Interest Image Posting => Emergency Vehicles => Topic started by: big bronto on July 20, 2009, 05:30:12 PM

Title: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: big bronto on July 20, 2009, 05:30:12 PM
Peoples thoughts on this new Hyundai Rescue vehicle getting around for CFS?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alex on July 20, 2009, 06:11:30 PM
lame...

in a service where crews cannot be garaunteed, giong back to a stand alone rescue seems like a bad idea... also road crash rescue [time critical] should not be the job of a 'pod vehicle', unless it was constantly setup as RCR and only changed over to HAZMAT, but even then this seems a bad idea to me.

also, i think others have staterd it, but RCRs/VAs often turn into dang. sub. incidents... so does this mean the vehicle [and crew to load pod] wil have to leave scene and go get the HAZMAT pod???

Seriously what is the problem with just fixing up the 34s/34Ps to have some workable locker space...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on July 20, 2009, 06:50:19 PM
lame...

in a service where crews cannot be garaunteed, giong back to a stand alone rescue seems like a bad idea... also road crash rescue [time critical] should not be the job of a 'pod vehicle', unless it was constantly setup as RCR and only changed over to HAZMAT, but even then this seems a bad idea to me.

also, i think others have staterd it, but RCRs/VAs often turn into dang. sub. incidents... so does this mean the vehicle [and crew to load pod] wil have to leave scene and go get the HAZMAT pod???

Seriously what is the problem with just fixing up the 34s/34Ps to have some workable locker space...

A brigade like Jamestown is a good example of how things should be...

34P Rescue
24P Hazmat

its just that, both of those  appliances dont have "comfortable" stowage lockers..for everything + more.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on July 20, 2009, 07:19:27 PM
I can see the value as a hazmat only, but not for RCR, just as a hazmat it would free up heaps of room. Often Hazmats are long distance jobs so won't tie up a Pumper or 34P, but leave 34P's and Pumpers as the RCR vehicles.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Hair on July 20, 2009, 08:39:39 PM
Why not all HAZMAT brigades have a purpose built tandem axle box trailer such as Strathalbyn and supply a Logistics vehicle to go with this. I'm sure some groups could warrant an extra Command/Logistics vehicle.
Would also be a cheaper option to maintain.

Hair
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on July 20, 2009, 10:42:23 PM
Sorry dont like it, where is the crew protection on those long trips to a RCR or to a hazmat job ??? Did CFS just go out and buy these with out any consultataion from its members who have to use them?? Sorry CFS but it wont work in the country where a RCR or Hazmat briagde has to drive for a hour or more just to get to a job.....


There are some photos on OZFIRE of the van......
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: BundyBear on August 08, 2009, 03:44:55 PM
How the wheel revolves CFS tried this years ago Smithfield CFS was one brigade that had a rescue van the managers in town should just concerntrate on building better appliances. They're trying a van? Why cause its cheap!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: pumprescue on August 08, 2009, 04:38:44 PM
Rumour has it that the van can only just squeeze the barest of essentials and isn't carrying a full RCR kit. Also apparently the whole POD idea is out the window, so basically they haven't acheived anything.  :x
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on August 08, 2009, 06:18:49 PM
http://failbus.com/
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: crashndash on August 08, 2009, 07:17:18 PM
Why not all HAZMAT brigades have a purpose built tandem axle box trailer such as Strathalbyn and supply a Logistics vehicle to go with this. I'm sure some groups could warrant an extra Command/Logistics vehicle.
Would also be a cheaper option to maintain.

Hair

can we please get the concepty of emergency vehicles and box trailers out of our respective heads.....its the 21st century. They are dangerous on the road, bad to work from an OHS perspective, and reinforce our half-arsed ness about dealing with emergency response.


If we need to have a Rescue Pump, then lets for heavens sake build one that takes the standard stowage. Its not that hard.

The vans have a place in support, particularly Hazmat, but honestly, if you were going to look at an RCR support vehicle, it wouldn't be the Try-undai. Try a dual cab Tradie type 4 x 4 with a slide out rear tray- useful for additional blocks, second pump, specialist tools or whatever u want
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: bittenyakka on August 08, 2009, 08:06:50 PM
Sorry dont like it, where is the crew protection on those long trips to a RCR or to a hazmat job ??? Did CFS just go out and buy these with out any consultataion from its members who have to use them?? Sorry CFS but it wont work in the country where a RCR or Hazmat briagde has to drive for a hour or more just to get to a job.....


There are some photos on OZFIRE of the van......

What do you mean by crew protection?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on August 09, 2009, 02:15:59 PM
There is no crew protection if one was to hit stock that are roaming around our country roads and I think its fair to say that any RCR brigade who has to drive long distance to a job might have the same feelings... Not sure how it would go in a MVA and what if any protection crews woudl have sitting on a bench seat in the back.... Thanks but I think a rescue appliance is better than a Tonka Toy.....
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: boredmatrix on August 09, 2009, 07:04:43 PM
so based on that theory...all regional officers should be driving trucks not less than 10 tonne capacity in case they come across a kangaroo.....and so what about ambo's.....should they all be driving freightliner or kenworth ambulances of not less than 10 tonne capacity because of the risk of animal strike?

Seriously- at what point does OHS become cost prohibitive to operating a service because a couple of people are scared of kangaroos?   SAAS have roo bars on their country fleet....the majority of which are...surprise surprise....VANS!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: BundyBear on August 09, 2009, 09:20:09 PM
The way CFS is going a lot of brigades struggle to get two appliances out the door so the van would go for rescue so where would the fire pump come from the next nearest brigade? also how far away is that brigade in some areas? A van is not an OHS&W issue but I say stick to pump/rescues at least you can react if there is a fire or fuel spill. We all know the real reason and its someone in you know what castle trying to create cheaper options instead of the right ones.

Also lets start getting the stowage right on these new appliances currently they are ordinary!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darius on August 10, 2009, 10:20:47 AM
although I am not in favour of the concept, actually that hyundai van does ok in the ANCAP crash testing: 4 stars, pretty good for a commercial van (and the same as the 100 series landcruiser).  http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/_scripts/ancap_detail.php?IID=2733
both of which are quite a bit better than the nissan navara 4WD (3 stars which is extremely poor for a new vehicle these days).
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on August 10, 2009, 10:35:18 AM
although I am not in favour of the concept, actually that hyundai van does ok in the ANCAP crash testing: 4 stars, pretty good for a commercial van (and the same as the 100 series landcruiser).  http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/_scripts/ancap_detail.php?IID=2733
both of which are quite a bit better than the nissan navara 4WD (3 stars which is extremely poor for a new vehicle these days).


Would the pod system loaded in the van decrease its crash testing star rating???
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: bajdas on August 10, 2009, 12:13:58 PM
The way CFS is going a lot of brigades struggle to get two appliances out the door so the van would go for rescue so where would the fire pump come from the next nearest brigade? also how far away is that brigade in some areas? A van is not an OHS&W issue but I say stick to pump/rescues at least you can react if there is a fire or fuel spill....

For an outsider, would you need to fill all the seats in both vehicles ? Why not place 2 or 3 in the fire appliance and 2 in the RCR van. Total crew at the incident still is 4 or 5 (same as currently) and you have the extra equipment on site.

Even the van will provide more crew / scene protection at the incident (fendoff position on the other side of the roadway) and possibly accelerate faster than a 24 truck.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: BundyBear on August 11, 2009, 11:03:37 AM
The way CFS is going a lot of brigades struggle to get two appliances out the door so the van would go for rescue so where would the fire pump come from the next nearest brigade? also how far away is that brigade in some areas? A van is not an OHS&W issue but I say stick to pump/rescues at least you can react if there is a fire or fuel spill....

For an outsider, would you need to fill all the seats in both vehicles ? Why not place 2 or 3 in the fire appliance and 2 in the RCR van. Total crew at the incident still is 4 or 5 (same as currently) and you have the extra equipment on site.

Even the van will provide more crew / scene protection at the incident (fendoff position on the other side of the roadway) and possibly accelerate faster than a 24 truck.

I understand what you are saying but personally I like a pump/rescue with a full compliment of crew, then you are only maintaining 1 vehicle not 2. Also at my brigade there has been occassions when we respond to an RCR and then on the way back to the station we are responded to a structure or another type of incident so therefore it is easier to manage crews and everything you need is available to you.

In my opinion the van is just a cost cutting tool if CFS was serious about rescue appliances with a rapid response capability why would they not look at a Ford F-350 at least that way you could mount a decent size pump and a 1000 litre tank on it as well as rescue equipment for MVA's.

Plus you have to say is this not just the big wheel turning around again I'm having visions of Smithfields old red rescue van and other brigades with Toyota 4x4's and trailers on the back.

Firefighters drive Fire Appliances  :x
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alex on August 11, 2009, 11:05:08 AM
There is no crew protection if one was to hit stock that are roaming around our country roads and I think its fair to say that any RCR brigade who has to drive long distance to a job might have the same feelings... Not sure how it would go in a MVA and what if any protection crews woudl have sitting on a bench seat in the back.... Thanks but I think a rescue appliance is better than a Tonka Toy.....

Get a grip... im sure they could put a polybar or something else on it if need be... but honestly its no differant to a command car is it. I would think this sort of appliance would be more comfortable for distance driving than our current appliances anyway.

If we could see how much stowage would fit and if it would be accesible... i can see a place for these as HAZMAT vehicles. Id still tend to disagree with them being an RCR option.

There was a VicSES falcon ute getting around that looked like a decent RCR setup.......
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alex on August 11, 2009, 11:07:21 AM

In my opinion the van is just a cost cutting tool


Of course it is!!!

Firefighters drive Fire Appliances  :x

And only fight fires???? There is a requirement for specialised vehicles also.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: chook on August 11, 2009, 03:45:20 PM
The Ford F350/F450 was used in Vic as a rescue & had numerous problems including poor turning circle, excessive fuel consumption & overweight.
Your combined Pump/rescues (& I have seen them up close) are manual handling nightmares (especially the 24P)in regards to RCR. And if you want a rescue appliance you need to consider not just RCR, so it wouldn't matter how well you designed the truck to have decent off road capability, decent wild fire capability, decent structural capability & be a proper rescue - you need more than one vehicle.
I'm not sure the van concept is that great for rural areas, however a dual cab chassis with a decent pod (I'm thinking merc sprinters here) would be ideal as a medium RCR truck & still be cheaper than a full blown Rescue pump.
Other than that I echo Alex's comments :wink:
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on August 11, 2009, 07:42:21 PM
The Ford F350/F450 was used in Vic as a rescue & had numerous problems including poor turning circle, excessive fuel consumption & overweight.
Your combined Pump/rescues (& I have seen them up close) are manual handling nightmares (especially the 24P)in regards to RCR. And if you want a rescue appliance you need to consider not just RCR, so it wouldn't matter how well you designed the truck to have decent off road capability, decent wild fire capability, decent structural capability & be a proper rescue - you need more than one vehicle.
I'm not sure the van concept is that great for rural areas, however a dual cab chassis with a decent pod (I'm thinking merc sprinters here) would be ideal as a medium RCR truck & still be cheaper than a full blown Rescue pump.
Other than that I echo Alex's comments :wink:

The pump/rescue concept has pretty much been perfected on the Type 2's (Mt Barker, Nuriootpa, Millicent, etc) that are far and few between....Trying to create a 34P Rescue Appliance and make it work well is a bastardisation of a Pump/Rescue.

Hazmat on a 34P is a OHS Nightmare...yet it is plainly overlooked, which i personally dont mind what so ever...  EG: Over-drums have to be manually lifted above the crew deck swing door height.


Take a Izuzu 2WD chassis, 1500L Tank, Urban/Rural Pump (not rural/urban), A midship locker that you can see completely through...(use all the other space for the Pumper/Stowage)....and Ta Da. Pumper/Rescue'OR'Hazmat.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Edster on October 07, 2009, 09:47:46 PM
Whats happened to the van? :evil: anyone got some news to shed on it?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on May 25, 2010, 10:50:57 PM
merc sprinters are a good idea for a rcr or hazmat vechile they dont have to be a pumper either as you can always send a 24P along with it but i think they should look at the SES new rcr vechile which is based on a merc sprinter that would be perfect for a rcr vechile and i was told the other day that there are hazmat vans already been made for the cfs the idea is of using these vehicles as rapid response to incidents that require further assistance these vehicles would get their faster then a 24P or 34P would but my guess is the cfs are looking at the rcr/hazmat vans that are currently in use in the nswfb
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on May 25, 2010, 11:01:53 PM
Wow, I am out of breath !!

They have 1 Hyundai van at the moment, but it seems to have been hidden somewhere, haven't seen it anywhere.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Mike on May 26, 2010, 10:22:17 AM
The SES sprinter has not had any good feedback from RCR units that im aware of...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on May 26, 2010, 11:21:03 AM
Rescue Appliances should pretty much be a  QAV/Rescue appliance in all cases...  If the road crash is in rescue brigades own area,  in the day time...and its on fire...    Needs a 500-1000L Tank, Smallest yet good enough pump possible + Hosereel and thats it.

If that aint possible...the rescue truck shouldnt mobilise, just the fire appliance, with a rescue default occuring.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: crashndash on May 26, 2010, 12:06:10 PM
Rescue Appliances should pretty much be a  QAV/Rescue appliance in all cases...  If the road crash is in rescue brigades own area,  in the day time...and its on fire...    Needs a 500-1000L Tank, Smallest yet good enough pump possible + Hosereel and thats it.

If that aint possible...the rescue truck shouldnt mobilise, just the fire appliance, with a rescue default occuring.

Back to BFF1 Respond to a Road Accident with you Zippy....... it's called fire protection at a scene....not neccessarily fire suppression. Needs to happen with or without the presence of "a fire".

To be serious about the job of RCR requires a fair suite of tools (not just those in charge) to be available. Given that a large amount of the CFS risk is open road, or 80kph or above signposted roads, then high speed impact and considerable passenger cell deformation is more likely to occur than in suburbia which has higher numbers of lower speed impacts. A QAV type appliance cannot cut it for this requirement. The CFS standard stowage for RCR is barely adequate for low speed impact collisions, let alone high speed, multi vehicle, or those involving road transport.

We know the current 34/34P builds dont cope well with multi roles (Hazmat+Rural, RCR + rural, or heaven forbid, RCR+Hazmat+Rural), and so  there needs to be some method of ensuring a higher response of equipment that might be needed. The concept of the Sprinters as a Support Vehicle is an easy solution to the fact that the CFS doesnt seem to be able to design a fire appliance that can adequately do 2 roles, and go offroad for a grass/wildfire. Sadly when u look at the costs a Sprinter doesnt stack up;

so for a cost of somewhere between $70k-$100k you will have an appliance, that still requires a fire vehicle respond with it.

Add $70k to the build cost of a 34P and you might get a proper build  on an appliance that is more usuable. For the dozen or so rescue and hazmat brigades that do a number of jobs a year, this has to be a better answer (and thus the Services Pumper is born!). For low number Brigades that still have a real RCR or Hazmat Risk, maybe a simple single cab 16ft tray with a (simple, durable) pod is a better idea for a support vehicle (ie change from $50k).

Like everything, no one model suits all

Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: ftstn on May 26, 2010, 10:15:49 PM
TFS custom built a 3.1 pump/rescue for Triabunna Brigade 3 tool capacity, 3000l water, and a Urban stowage have some pics somewhere, PM if interested

Maffu
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on May 27, 2010, 02:02:02 AM
the 3.1P pump/tank/rescue, definately is a decent looking appliance compared to our 34P's.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 02, 2010, 10:13:26 PM
Hey people i seen this vehicle tonight
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Chinny on June 02, 2010, 10:34:42 PM
Please post pics :-D
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 12:02:42 AM
:D
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: CFS_Firey on June 03, 2010, 12:28:15 AM
Thanks for the pics.  It does look pretty light on for stowage... is there much in the way of stabilisation, hand tools or casualty protection? and is that only 1 ram I see?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 03, 2010, 01:09:55 AM
Wow it is very light on for equipment, you would hope the truck coming with you has a lot of extra gear on it.

How many crew did this appliance carry ?

SAAS are running merc vans.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Mike on June 03, 2010, 08:07:00 AM
Well, it certainly doesnt look convincing.
Lack of gear, space for useful stuff....

Was that a set of Stabfast between the pump and tools?
On the bright side, it had streamline couplings :)
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: bajdas on June 03, 2010, 12:24:37 PM
What I do not understand is why two different RCR vehicle proto-types are being evaluated by SES and CFS in South Australia.

I know the SES Van is being mooted for multi roles (storm, chainsaw, RCR, light rescue, etc) depending on equipment within it. But the CFS Van is being mooted for RCR and Hazmat.

Isn't the RCR Van to do the same job for the community ? Then why is the development not the same vehicle type or basic design ?

But then, I think the RCR equipment and RCR training is not standardised in SA yet.

Maybe I live in a fantasy too much for a perfect world where any RCR trained person could walk to a van or truck (MFS, SES, CFS) and know how to operate the basics. Each will always have slight variances for local conditions.

Please tell this can already happen and equipment can be shared/connected !!!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Andrew K on June 03, 2010, 03:35:09 PM
that ses van isn't a sprinter it is a transit,

and ergonomically for shorter people it is a nightmare, the general manufacture is pretty poor in some areas, you lose a whole locker for the light mast rather than putting it on the front of the box. space wise it will be better for light rescue than the hilux's but its not really going to be able to carry the kit we may need for day to day jobs.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: CFS_Firey on June 03, 2010, 04:26:51 PM
Wouldn't mind seeing some photos of the SES van if you have any...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Bagyassfirey on June 03, 2010, 04:41:45 PM
This van is also no good for the taller people as ya will hit head on rear door!

Also it would only really suit the brigades that can guarantee enough crew to roll the rescue van and a tanker for fire cover (for those where next resource is miles down the road)...Brigades on south eastern free way and down south where they are forever doing RCR i could see it having use but elsewhere it might just be a pipe dream.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Andrew K on June 03, 2010, 04:56:51 PM
cfs firey i posted some pics from my mobile phone in the photos section of the forum

http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=2486.0 (http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=2486.0)
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 03, 2010, 06:31:05 PM
So here is an intersting question:

Why do the Fire Services Australia wide insist on covering the same ground, OVER AND OVER again!

- Rescue Vans? NSWFB's done that!

- Heavy Rescues? Everyone one, BUT SA, worked that out! (Volunteer AND Career)

- Hazmat Vans? CFA/NSWFB done them too!

- 14's? RFS/CFA/QRFS/DSE Got that T-Shirt!

- Medium Rural Tankers? or God forbid, Medium Urban Pumpers?! CFA/NSWFB/QFRS/MFB Smashed that one!

- Importing Trucks? QFRS and Le France Nailed that!

- Ugly Appliances? NSWFB and Old Skool QFRS FirePac 3500 win that one.

Not to mention the rest. Why do we continue to spend money on reinventing the wheel when we are so strapped for cash as it is?

The abhorrent RCR stowage kit that is now the standard across CFS (the Lukas Set, which is below the CFS's own minimum standard) is essentially only good for Rapid Intervention work. If it gets marginally complex, bad luck, call the next rescue appliance, just to ensure you finally have a full set of gear.

Why does the Rescue Van need more than 2 seats? Why don't the extra crew bring the Fire appliance? Why does the Rescue need water? Fire suppression is primarily at the job to protect the rescuers, not the casualties. Why isn't 38mm hose the norm for fire suppression (when a Fire appliance is in attendance)? Why do we carry a Foam extinguisher and not a CO2? Don't we have a truck full of foam?

Why don't the CFS use a van with a proven track record (eg: The Merc Sprinter) that has oodles of stowage space and multiple access points? - I guess it doesn't matter when you continue to reduce the Rescue stowage until it can fit into a single locker on a 34P. Don't build a truck around the stowage, just make sure you cull items from the minimum stowage until it fits in the locker!

Has anyone tried to build a decent 3x3 Box crib off a CFS appliance recently? Oh wait a tick, no need to, we don't use them crazy High Pressure Airbags. But for stabilisation, you'll get a long way with all eight of them 90x90x500 Crib blocks... Sure!

At this rate, CFS should probably hand Rescue wholly over to SES. At least they seem to take it seriously... (Well they incorporated the word into their logo, it IS a start)

Why doesn't the CFS get serious about rescue? A few Rapid Intervention kits around at stations, a few REAL Heavy Rescue trucks to cover areas. Every Rescue job gets a Fire appliance, and a Heavy, although the RIK carrying tankers can achieve 99% of the daily RCR tasks, pending the inability of the Heavy to attend.

Oh Christ, the answer to that lays with money, no doubt, but also the fact that you can't extricate someone from a car using a box of Matches and a McLeod tool... (and EWW! You might get that PBI dirty!)

Ahem, well that MIGHT have gone off topic a little but, no worries. I'm substantially calmer now, just don't ask me about the state of non-RCR Rescue in CFS...


Also:

Hey people i seen this vehicle tonight at Stirling north its not actually a pod design at all its actually road crash gear set put in 2 movable steel lockers which are set up on a wheels which fit into a groves which then slide out i have pictures if anyon1 is interested the main problems we found is that the pump and hoses are fixed to the setup and you can not take them off and move them to a car like you would at a incident it also has no fire extinguishers or cones or E Flare warning devices the only warning devices are the lights but no cones or e flares or extinguisher are on it because its basically a rapid response vechile and it would be accompanied by a 34s or 24s anyway also someone made a comment about that the new pattern design kind of resembled a ambulance as there is a ambulance that is getting around on the same chasis i have been told anyone from saas confirm that for me? i know over in nsw i have the design but not in south aus anyway reply back to me and ill upload the photos of this new rcr van

For filtered sake, learn to filtered type, you're giving me a filtered aneurysm. Maybe the CFS would be better off saving money and sending its Vollo's back to school. God help the Coroner that needs to read your goddamned Incident logs!

EDIT:

Wow, I think some [Rapid] divine intervention just occurred. These vans would be great if used properly. Since they only carry a Rapid Intervention Kit, give them to brigades so they can have fire trucks that just do firefighting (CFS Loves that) so you don't waste a locker with that pesky RCR gear. Then, ensure that you place Heavy Rescues (Firefighting capability? Not unless its RIT duties, with a stokes and powersaw) around the place to ensure full coverage. This should mean that most places will be covered by either a Rapid Intervention Spastic Van or a Heavy Rescue Hero Truck. Viola, a costly, yet workable solution...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 08:26:04 PM
yes its light on storage
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 03, 2010, 08:41:11 PM
No its not solving anything, build some real rescues, anyone else notice that 15 years ago a larger number of stations had real rescues, Mt Barkers is gone, Stirlings is gone, Williamstown's is gone, Yankallila's will go, Lobethals isn't even there's, they had to rely on SES for the vehicle to stow the CFS rescue gear.

Something is wrong here, CFS isn't really serious about rescue, like you said the Lukas gear is barely above the level of RIV, the onle decent kit I have seen in recent times is Mt Barkers Holmatro, CFS actually gave them a decent cutter....but took away their airbags and they can't get all the cribbing and stokes litter on the truck.

But thats ok, we will just call them MFS, they can save our butts with DECENT equipment !!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 03, 2010, 08:43:09 PM
yes its light on storage because it is built around rapid response where the essence is you would already have another rescue recourse committed to the incident and yes that is stabfast gear and yes 1 ram is correct this is basicly to get a vechile out the door quickly with less gear and crew


No its designed to replace having the gear on a 34P or 24P, so this idea of it being above is wrong mate, very wrong. No idea where you got that idea from, if your brigade is on the cards to get one, then you must realise that this will be your rescue, there won't be any other gear !
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 08:59:25 PM
well not necessarily
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 03, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
yes its light on storage because it is built around rapid response where the essence is you would already have another rescue recourse committed to the incident and yes that is stabfast gear and yes 1 ram is correct this is basicly to get a vechile out the door quickly with less gear and crew

So this vehicle cannot perform Rescue tasks all on its lonesome! News Flash to the CFS you don't build a whole vehicle to simply stow the contents of a single locker on a 34P. Good god I hope the Appliances R&D section of the Service dies in a horrible Fire Truck accident soon.

No its not solving anything, build some real rescues, anyone else notice that 15 years ago a larger number of stations had real rescues, Mt Barkers is gone, Stirlings is gone, Williamstown's is gone, Yankallila's will go, Lobethals isn't even there's, they had to rely on SES for the vehicle to stow the CFS rescue gear.

Something is wrong here, CFS isn't really serious about rescue, like you said the Lukas gear is barely above the level of RIV, the onle decent kit I have seen in recent times is Mt Barkers Holmatro, CFS actually gave them a decent cutter....but took away their airbags and they can't get all the cribbing and stokes litter on the truck.

But thats ok, we will just call them MFS, they can save our butts with DECENT equipment !!

Real Rescues went out the door as soon as the difference between "RCR Light" and "RCR Heavy" left the Green Bible. I do wonder why the CFS official 2004 RCR stowage list lists "Rapid Intervention" and "CFS Heavy" as the two categories of list. Now, you will notice upon inspection of the given list that the minimum requirements for "CFS Heavy" is below that of the minimum standard as given by the Green bible. Uh, hello? CFS? You can't do that.

We currently have:

*Minimum* RCR Kit as per Green Book
(Which is essentially a Fischer Price "My First Rescue Kit")
NB: This is meant to be the agreed upon minimum stowage to be listed in the book as a Rescue Resource.

"CFS Heavy"
Doesn't meet above minimum

"Rapid Intervention"
Doesn't meet above minimum, nor is it ever specified in Green Book.

Currently, I think only Mt. Barker is the only thing that manages to resemble the "Old" Heavy Rescues like Virginia, Stirling and Mt. Barker had, and even that is a shadow of its former self.

Couple to the whole Rescue debacle the fact that places like Blackwood, Millicent, Mt. Barker and Stirling have a crippled Urban capability since they have an Urban Pumper chocked full of Rescue gear in a mish mash of places to make it fit. Where are the Stand Alone Rescues these days? Of the 9 CFS Appliances that dare to call themselves "Rescue" 5 are stand alone, and apart from Aldinga Beach, they're all in the sticks, out of the reach of CFSHQ... for now. (Not to mention they all look really old, and probably due for abolition soon)

Why do we have Brigades with major transport corridors that DO NOT have Airbags? (HAB and LAB) Yet why is there a CFS TRK for them? Where is the CFSVA? This is putting volunteers at risk having to use Spreaders and Rams without adequate stabilisation to perform tasks that the equipment isn't really designed for. Someone call OH&S Branch!

Start putting in those near miss forms.

Oh also, I hate to tell you CFS, but those Brigades that have "full" Rescue stowage on their pumper, actually makes it a "Pump Rescue" or "Rescue Pump"... A "Rescue" ain't got no water on it!

well not necessarily busy road crash brigades like the Adelaide hills and my brigade Stirling north will have this as a second lot of rcr gear as our gear on the 34P will not be going anywhere. region 4 haven't shown much interest in a rcr one they said its more suited for the Adelaide hills area but are interested in the one for hazmat as there are only about 5 or so hazmat brigades in region 4 which are Clare, Stirling north,Jamestown, woomera and coober pedy and the hazmat van would be more useful than a rcr we see because we feel the need for one for hazmat rather than rcr as we have numerous rcr resources we can rely on unless they cant pull a crew in which is the reason for rapid response rcr just in case they need a rcr brigade defaults and its about 100km from the brigade that gets paged for that brigade.

Hahaha, no. That will not happen. Is the CFS actually going to spend money on new kit let alone a whole mini truck for it? Show me a "Busy" Rescue Brigade that couldn't stow Rapid Intervention kit on their second truck. Combi-Tool, Ram, Pump, Crib Blocks, Wedge bags, and PPK. That'll almost fit into two 24 lockers, let alone the "Rescue" Locker on a 34P

Also: .,.,.,.,.,:" " ", ..,.,.,''''',.,.,.,.,.,,,.,.,,,,,.,.,,..,.,  just had them lying around, thought you might be able to use them so that you could actually communicate in a language other than dribble.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 03, 2010, 09:29:02 PM
I actually got told once that if you want specialist gear then call the SES....no worries, so long as you don't want it today, thanks for dropping the ball on that CFS, I am sure they will drag out the "We are poor line"  :x
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 03, 2010, 09:42:03 PM
I actually got told once that if you want specialist gear then call the SES....no worries, so long as you don't want it today, thanks for dropping the ball on that CFS, I am sure they will drag out the "We are poor line"  :x

Wow. Please start turning the SES out to all RCR's. That would be grand. I'd love to find out what this "specialist" gear is...

Do the CFS Rescue Gods sit around and ponder "Hmm if we need Two medium rams to perfom a full Dash Roll, then lets give all the brigades.... ONE...SHORT RAM! Yes!"

According to current stowage, CFS Rescue Operators will never ever need to roll both sides of a dash simultaneously, cross ram off anything BUT the transmission tunnel, perform ANY inverted floor/roof displacement procedures, nor will they ever need to displace any part of a vehicle with chains and spreaders, be it dash of steering column.

Why do we train our operators in techniques that they CANNOT perform at their Brigades due to insufficent/inadequate equipment?

Why does the CFS treat Rescue as such a joke?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 03, 2010, 09:52:39 PM
Well why don't we ask the powers to be, send a letter to the powers mate.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 09:57:44 PM
people this vechile is a PROTOTYPE
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 03, 2010, 10:00:01 PM
Well why don't we ask the powers to be, send a letter to the powers mate.

Chain of Command rules supreme in SACFS, you know that! Plus you get in strife for sending logical, well though out letter that is backed by solid evidence.

... Meanwhile, somewhere near Euan Fergo's office...

"Quick! Someone call the Police!"
"Whats happened?!"
"There's a letter here filled with a Hazardous Substance that we don't know how to deal with!"
"What is is?!"
"...it... it... it smells like, LOGIC"
"AIE!!"

"ADELAIDE FIRE? Send us.... EVERYBODY"

Edit: I think I caught something off firefighter21...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 03, 2010, 10:14:48 PM
people this vechile is a PROTOTYPE its to give an idea of what these rcr vans may look like it dosent mean they will be based on this chasis, and as for cfs not having a full rcr stowage thats not true as on my brigades rescue truck we have stabilization air bags, we have two rams, we have a spreaders and we have cutters, we have a full set of chock blocks anyway usualy any rcr entrapment we go to are usauly out of town and usualy means a dual or triple response of rcr equipment we will have ses, mfs and us at the incident and why give the role of rcr to the ses the cfs do it good it just depends on what rcr brigades carry and their area. these rcr vans will not mean they will replace your main rcr response vechile either 24P or 34P as this van will be used as a regional or group type thing as a backup vechile incase and it will also go to incidents with the full rcr set in the 34P or 24P. its a prototype and nothing more the van was donated to the cfs so they converted it into a prototpye rcr van just so rcr brigades get the general idea and they are being evaluated by each brigade so this will result in changes

STEP A:

Go read the RCR Resource Directory. Make a note of interesting information. Things like "Pulling tips for spreaders and chains/straps"

STEP B:


Read the current stowage list for RCR, compare this to the information you noted in STEP A

STEP C:

Go look at the current kit that CFS is issuing as "RCR Stowage" and compare this to the information you noted in STEPS A & B.

If you can't see the glaring discrepancies, then you'd better get thee to an optometrist pronto!

Congratulations for being a very lucky area in the state where you get smashed with duplication of resources. Think about things for just one second... there are areas in state that have no RCR backup for miles, and when they do, its another CFS Brigade (CRAZY?! - I know!)



So you have "Stabilization Airbags", Two rams, Spreaders, Cutters and a full set of "Chock Blocks"...

The airbags... High or Low pressure? What capacity? Do you carry enough air cylinders to use them? Carry enough Crib blocks to build a box crib or two, plus multiple primary and secondary towers?

Two rams... What length? What capacity? Single Stage? Telescoping? Can they actually push the whole distance from the B pillar to the A Pillar and effectively displace the dash? Do they need a "Ram Support"? Do you have one for each ram?

The spreaders... What is their capacity? Do you have pulling chains/straps? Do you have removable tips?

"Chock Blocks"... Do you mean Step Blocks? You have a full set? Is this 4? Do you mean assorted Blocks/Wedges? How many? The CFS "Standard" of 8 crib blocks? Good luck getting any height out of a box crib for your airbags...

See where the deficiencies can lie?



I applaud Brigades that have gone out and furnished their RCR kit with extras that they and their community feel they need. Its just very sad that CFS seem to be shafting the entire discipline of Motor Vehicle Extrication.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Bagyassfirey on June 03, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
well not necessarily busy road crash brigades like the Adelaide hills and my brigade Stirling north will have this as a second lot of rcr gear as our gear on the 34P will not be going anywhere. region 4 haven't shown much interest in a rcr one they said its more suited for the Adelaide hills area but are interested in the one for hazmat as there are only about 5 or so hazmat brigades in region 4 which are Clare, Stirling north,Jamestown, woomera and coober pedy and the hazmat van would be more useful than a rcr we see because we feel the need for one for hazmat rather than rcr as we have numerous rcr resources we can rely on unless they cant pull a crew in which is the reason for rapid response rcr just in case they need a rcr brigade defaults and its about 100km from the brigade that gets paged for that brigade.


Reckon last time i looked Clare was in Region2?

Also if your getting 3 RCR equipped resources responded to all you RCR incidents WOW think your selves lucky and really couldnt ask for much more ey?

For argument sake if this van did become a real thing wouldnt it replace one of your vehicles not be an addition?

I wouldnt know a thing about RCR gear and am finidng this a really interesting post  :-)
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 10:35:03 PM
soz dont know
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 10:47:58 PM
 here is the list of stowage

1 multi stage ram
1 spreader
1 cutter
hard protection and soft procetion this is situated behind the cage right behind the seats from what i was told
a set of stabfast stablisation equipment
1 pump
a primary entry kit
 set of 35m cables
the appliance seats seats 4 people in the back and 3 people in the front

now this is a list of equipment the van did not have but was agreed on that its a must have on a rcr kit vechile

traffic cones this van had none so that means if the van got there first theres no cones to create a safe zone around the incident

no E flare warning devices so at night the only indication would be the hazard lights on the vechiles

no fire extinguishers

no hooligan tool



Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 03, 2010, 11:56:55 PM


yea i made a mistake lol clare is in region 2
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 04, 2010, 12:22:13 AM
I can see great value for a hazmat crew transport vehicle, but this is the wrong sort of van for HAZMAT, if they are struggling to fit the less than basic RCR kit, how do they plan to fit a full hazmat kit with overdrums ?

Also yes, the gear CFS brigades had under council funding for RCR is no where near as good as it used to be. Whilst everyone has newish gear, its nowhere near what is considered the old heavy rescue. Especially for those on major highways, it would be considered laughable in most any other state or country !
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 04, 2010, 12:25:26 AM
Aww its cute... I didn't think that there was anyone out there that still took the CFS's word as Gospel!

Trust me, if you get a Rescue Van, CFS will take you comms van, ATLEAST one Fire Appliance and probably your dog and baby sister. Its just the way it is.

mate im not rcr trained as of yet i only know the basics of what ive seen on the appliance but rams we multi stage rams yes and dnt knw about supports

Sorry champ, I'll go easy.  :mrgreen:

and from what i seen on the prototype rcr van here is the list of stowage

1 multi stage ram
1 spreader
1 cutter
hard protection and soft procetion this is situated behind the cage right behind the seats from what i was told
a set of stabfast stablisation equipment
1 pump
a primary entry kit
 set of 35m cables
the appliance seats seats 4 people in the back and 3 people in the front

now this is a list of equipment the van did not have but was agreed on that its a must have on a rcr kit vechile
traffic cones this van had none so that means if the van got there first theres no cones to create a safe zone around the incident
no E flare warning devices so at night the only indication would be the hazard lights on the vechiles
no fire extinguishers
no hooligan tool

here is a list of things we disliked and pointed out
the pump and cables are fixed resource it is mounted to setup so they cant be taken of which means the van will be closer to the incident than the truck would be
the back door is a problem for tall people
the back doors decal setup resembles a ambulance so this may confuse the occupants

So basically its the standard "CFS Heavy" Kit. Oh the laughs keep coming...

Protip: If you have this kit, don't even both with a Dash Roll, go straight for Dash lift with the spreaders or roll the dash with chains (oh wait, you can't do that either)

FOUR in the back and THREE in the front... SEVEN? What the? Imagine all the stowage you could fit with only two or three at most!

No fire extinguisher? Good idea CFS.

Wow, no traffic cones... good old CFS, they're a thinking lot.

No halligan? Good, saves weight, what the hey are you using this for at an RCR? Someone driving a truck carrying building doors you need to force?

Uh, the Rescue should ALWAYS be closer to the job than the Fire Appliance, although the pump/reels should be removable.

Back door decals confusing... confusing who? The Vollos? If they confuse the volunteers, holy crap... I don't know what to say. If you guys mean the occupants trapped, then surely as soon as you ask "Fire Service Rescue, can you hear me?" they'll work it out.

Now I swear I had something better to do at midnight... Just...forgot what it...was...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on June 04, 2010, 12:28:11 AM
I can see great value for a hazmat crew transport vehicle, but this is the wrong sort of van for HAZMAT, if they are struggling to fit the less than basic RCR kit, how do they plan to fit a full hazmat kit with overdrums ?

Also yes, the gear CFS brigades had under council funding for RCR is no where near as good as it used to be. Whilst everyone has newish gear, its nowhere near what is considered the old heavy rescue. Especially for those on major highways, it would be considered laughable in most any other state or country !

The idea of Vans to support a response, either Hazmat or Rescue is a very sound idea, and perhaps a good, low cost solution to the Stand Alone trucks for both disciplines, but yet again the CFS manage to turn the implementation into a giant fuckup.

Darren, I reckon you could fit two overdrums, filled with Hazmat dudes, in the back plus two more dudes in the front... no worries!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 04, 2010, 12:54:43 AM
Well soon there won't be anyone left to man any of these vehicles, so I guess down sizing has its merits. No one left, no seats needed. Or none of us will be trained to use it, thank Mr Rann.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: disOrderly on June 04, 2010, 03:56:29 AM
Does anyone have any pictures of this van?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: crashndash on June 04, 2010, 04:07:41 AM

Sorry champ, I'll go easy.  :mrgreen:


going soft Numbers....soft I tells ya  :-P
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: CFS_Firey on June 04, 2010, 10:39:22 AM
Does anyone have any pictures of this van?

CFS Van:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1)

SES Van:
http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=2486.0 (http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=2486.0)
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Bagyassfirey on June 04, 2010, 05:51:43 PM
Quote
Reckon last time i looked Clare was in Region2?

Also if your getting 3 RCR equipped resources responded to all you RCR incidents WOW think your selves lucky and really couldnt ask for much more ey?

For argument sake if this van did become a real thing wouldnt it replace one of your vehicles not be an addition?

I wouldnt know a thing about RCR gear and am finidng this a really interesting post  smiley

yea i made a mistake lol clare is in region 2 and we dont always have 3 rcr resources for each incident usualy if its anything out of town then automatically cfs, mfs and maybe ses  responds to it but they will usualy do lighting and traffic control for us unless we need them to help out with an extraction but ten times out of ten mfs and cfs will be there but if its major ses will rock up and if we do for example get one of those vans we wont lose any of our 2 fire appliances as we need our 34P and our 24P so it will just be another addition to our already huge station of 2 fire pumps, 1 tanker, 3 support vehicles a logistics, a air operations truck and a comms vechile if i say we lose any vehicles it would be the comms as that rarely gets used but who knws we are more likely to get the one for hazmat than rcr from what i hear cause more there is more interest in one for hazmat then for rcr


Got ya head in the sand if ya think going to get a rescue appliance and not lose anything!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: firefighter21 on June 05, 2010, 07:13:05 PM
 :-o
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: BundyBear on June 06, 2010, 09:55:18 PM
Still banging on about rescue vans - Firefighters drive trucks!

Wanna drive a van start sellling pies an pasties or trade your yellows for orange!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Andrew K on June 07, 2010, 07:20:53 PM
 "or trade your yellows for orange!"

hope that doesn't mean what i think it does, it would be nice if people stopped taking shots at other services we do all volunteer for the same reason
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: BundyBear on June 07, 2010, 08:59:08 PM
"or trade your yellows for orange!"

hope that doesn't mean what i think it does, it would be nice if people stopped taking shots at other services we do all volunteer for the same reason

No sledge intended Andrew K just making the point once agian a certain department of the CFS is looking for cheap impractical solutions that have been tried many moons ago in the CFS.

A mixture of vans and trucks probably works for the SES due to the nature of your response but not for a fire service. Pump/Rescues are the only way to go due to the areas CFS respond into and the lack of numbers during the day especially for many brigades.

There are a number of reasons why this idea of vans for a fire service that is manned by volunteers has operational and safety concerns.

Have got a lot of time for you guys and girls in orange, all is cool! :-D
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Andrew K on June 07, 2010, 09:58:46 PM
really when you look at it the ses does't have that many vans all of our metro rescues are trucks with 4wds for light support - we've only got that trial transit floating around and thats a cab chassie not a van as such,

when you look at it for rcr for brigades and units there is a place for them as they are cheaper - with everyone complaining about money thats a large point does a high risk low call brigade really need a truck worth several hundred thousand or a 60,000 van. Akso the vans don't require a truck license to drive which for several ses units is a big advantage not sure about how cfs stands for drivers especially during day time.

so long as it can carry the kit required safely and i would have thought that a custom box on the back might have made more sense than what they have in the pics if you can get 10 vans compared to 4 trucks, you are going to increase the coverage of the equipment for responses.

Also as a pump will probably respond as well it gives you a second fend off vehicle for protection of the scene.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: crashndash on June 08, 2010, 12:59:16 AM
... does a high risk low call brigade really need a truck worth several hundred thousand or a 60,000 van.


Also as a pump will probably respond as well...

errr.....Answer Your Own Question 101 maybe?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 08, 2010, 07:56:50 AM
You just kind of killed your self in your own statement.

Your going to need just as many fire trucks, the van would have to be additional, so not really saving anything but needing truck drivers. Looking at the levels of equipment on this van, I would rather take a truck.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Andrew K on June 08, 2010, 12:27:31 PM
darren

what i'm trying to get at is if at the moment yes they will need a truck to respond which it is already going to but instead of giving them a new truck worth several hunderd thousand just to cart their rcr gear this will do the same job for a lot less cost and doesn't need truck drivers, i'm not saying take away the trucks or don't take them to jobs, these vans could be a useful supplement to the job if they are designed right which personally i don't think this one is but the idea behind it isn't so bad
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Darren on June 08, 2010, 12:31:04 PM
But you still haven't saved any money, those trucks still need to be replaced, and in the end you all you are saving is a few thousand as they might say get a standard 34 instead of a 34P. But most brigades that have RCR need the 34P anyway for the urban risks they have. Its only really good for say the like s of Ceduna who have to travel a LOOOOONG way for RCR, and taking the pump out of area isn't a good idea. But without fire coverage at all on this vehicles then your still going to have to take a fire appliance.

For Hazmat its a good idea, but need a bigger van than this I think.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alan (Big Al) on June 08, 2010, 02:47:33 PM
Doesnt help when cfs hands out new 34P's to non specialst quiet brigades either, when there are busyish brigades out there with rcr who could put them to better use.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: bajdas on June 08, 2010, 04:18:01 PM
Playing Devils Advocate....

Maybe this should be considered has a specialist extension to the fire truck.

Lots of people complain that the current 34 fire truck is:

* not enough locker space to fit RCR gear into => Van provides extra space.
* larger trucks will not fit into brigade sheds. => smaller extensions with lower height roofs can be built to accomodate van.
* not flexible enough in layout to meet changing or specific => van can be modified to provide for hazmat or rescue or something else.
* unable to tow trailers with pumps, collar dams, etc, etc behind fire truck => I have seen trailers behind group cars. Maybe they can be towed behind a Van.
* 34 fire truck is too big to go in some hills driveways or streets => if Van emptied, it could carry pump & hoses or tow trailer to incident.
* Not enough crew space to carry personal gear or people => Van has extra seats, which also means more leg room if both vehicles used for a crew of four.
* Fire truck too heavy when in rural fire off-road => less gear means less weight. You dont need the rescue gear at a rural fire or strike team do you ?
* Fire truck slow speed up hill under lights/sirens => less gear means less weight. Van will also be quicker.
* Fire truck responding to tree downs seem an overkill => Van can do this.
* Not enough group cars to transport volunteers to meetings or training, Volunteers have to use their own transport => Van can be emptied & this can be used.

Otherwise, get a tandem trailer to provide the extra space (this will get a reaction) like SES.

It is a pity that a design of a POD to fit over the crew deck that can be lifted on & off to provide the extra space. But I think the height & weight (when loaded) would be an issue.

OK, Hyundai donated the Van for CFS to play with. I would guess they satisfied the donation by making a discussion point because Hyundai would be hoping for more sales.

If you got a slip-on box (one for hazmat, another for Rescue, another water tank and a flat tray for general transport) on a small vehicle....could that work has your extra locker space ?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: safireservice on March 14, 2011, 09:22:28 AM
Just interesed to see what happened with this? I beleive its still floating around somewhere? I havent seen any pics and the link on page 3 doesnt have any photos anymore. Sorry to drag up an old thread but was interested in the photos and how it was set up.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on March 14, 2011, 10:48:36 AM
I did a RCR upskill late last year and the RARTOS had it down here but they where not happy with it as the petrol fume's from the RCR PUMPS was making them sick.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: misterteddy on March 14, 2011, 10:54:02 AM
Just interesed to see what happened with this? I beleive its still floating around somewhere? I havent seen any pics and the link on page 3 doesnt have any photos anymore. Sorry to drag up an old thread but was interested in the photos and how it was set up.

used as a run around/general purpose vehicle for Brukunga and the RCR/Hazmat guys
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: pumprescue on March 14, 2011, 06:23:44 PM
In other words....not a succesful idea....thank god...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: JJD on March 16, 2011, 08:46:10 PM
I beleive the RARTOs are using it for upskills, general running around, etc. and its based at Brukunga.

Ive had a look over it and been for a joyride.

The concept is great but the execution needs a LOT of work. Using a different vehicle platform (rather than the cheapest available vehicle) would be an excellent start. A larger vehicle would be preferential.

The fume issue is because the pump is mounted on a sliding carriage in the back. Even with the carriage in the out position, the upward hingeing rear door directs fumes straight back into the cabin area. (The rear door is also too low for the average person to stand upright under. Fully opening doors (like the ambulances) would help prevent this while staying out of the way. Some sort of divider between the passenger compartment and load area would also be more beneficial.

My thoughts only, it all comes down to $$$ and the concept was built on a pretty tight budget.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: bajdas on March 17, 2011, 10:40:00 AM
A few of the new SES Transit Vans have been in service for a period of time now in various configurations.

I THINK, Murray Bridge & Mount Gambier have the RCR configurations.

Does anyone have info / feedback on these Vans ?

God forbid if we actually shared the same equipment setup between services in SA....what am I thinking    :roll: :-o :-P :-D
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Robert-Robert34 on March 17, 2011, 03:07:34 PM
Personally i think the concept of having vans fitted out as RCR vehicles is a great idea that has potential come to fruition although as fore-mentioned above the issue of fumes has to be dealt with first in order for this idea to go ahead with

One remedy/possibility that comes to mind would be to have a specialised slide out tray that comes out of the back and allows crew to lift up the generator and place it on the ground
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Pipster on March 17, 2011, 05:37:44 PM
But as had been said before, if you have a stand alone rescue vehicle of any sort, you still need a fire appliance for fire cover.....

Pip
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on March 17, 2011, 07:41:59 PM
I have not seen one in Gambier SES station they still have the rescue truck there was talk of vans but then there was talks of them having just a trailer with all the RCR gear in it....As pip said stand alone rscue's still req a fire appliances...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: JJD on March 17, 2011, 09:11:27 PM
But as had been said before, if you have a stand alone rescue vehicle of any sort, you still need a fire appliance for fire cover.....

Pip

C'mon this is basic stuff everybody should know...

SOP 2.1 Initial resource response shedule

Incident type: Road crash rescue

Response to incident: 1st alarm (initial response)

1xRescue
1xTANKER (for fire cover)


So, THEORETICALLY (yes i know theory doesn't always work) every time a rescue appliance rolls another tanker should be on the go as well, regardless of whether the said rescue appliance has water or not.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alex on March 17, 2011, 10:01:49 PM
But as had been said before, if you have a stand alone rescue vehicle of any sort, you still need a fire appliance for fire cover.....

Pip


That should not be a factor when building appliances though.

Yes it saves a lot of money to make 'pump/rescues' or whack RCR gear on a 34P, but it also means that RCR equipment that is meant to service a wide area, regularly gets tied up at fire scenes. This then obviously means there is heavily reduced coverage for the community.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alan J on March 18, 2011, 02:26:05 AM
But as had been said before, if you have a stand alone rescue vehicle of any sort, you still need a fire appliance for fire cover.....

Pip

So roll an appliance as well.
From another brigade if needs be.
The extra hands will likely be useful anyway.

cheers
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 18, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
The Rescue van concept is a good one, just the CFS's implementation of it is yet again lacking. If other states can do it and do it properly, why does the CFS again and again screw the pooch on implementation.

It's almost as if they take a great idea and then actively work to destroy it. If you took a round wheel, would you try to reinvent it and make it square? No. But the CFS would.

As for the Pump fume issue, how many people run their motor powered equipment while its still sitting in a locker or on a roll out shelf with the exhaust directed back into the truck? Exactly, no-one... So god forbid, take the pump OUT of its stowage location before use...

It's not hard.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on March 18, 2011, 12:43:57 PM
Numbers its got nothing to do with fumes while they are at a job as the pump is removed from the van the issue is that the fuel in the pump and spare fuel fumes are getting into the open cab. May be if CFS spent a little more time looking into what other services are doing rather than look at a photo that may solve some of the problems...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Zippy on March 18, 2011, 01:24:51 PM
A good start of where to look: Victoria and New south wales.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 18, 2011, 03:13:13 PM
Numbers its got nothing to do with fumes while they are at a job as the pump is removed from the van the issue is that the fuel in the pump and spare fuel fumes are getting into the open cab. May be if CFS spent a little more time looking into what other services are doing rather than look at a photo that may solve some of the problems...

Ref:

The fume issue is because the pump is mounted on a sliding carriage in the back. Even with the carriage in the out position, the upward hingeing rear door directs fumes straight back into the cabin area.

?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: tft on March 18, 2011, 05:08:43 PM
So the SOP say.
1xRescue
1xTANKER (for fire cover)

But in the real world where the CFS is short of crews and drivers. A CFS rescue van is a waste of time. How many brigades default? So a rescue appliance needs a pump(fire). It just make basic sense and could help save lives. How many times do rescue brigades respond with only 4 or 5 and 1 driver?
Yes other resources are responded often with delay.
 
Check the CFS pager site and listen to the scanner over the next few weeks. To see how many times crews default or have a slow response.

 
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Pipster on March 18, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
And interestingly, CFS have done their best in recent years to get rid of stand alone rescues, and replace them with fire appliances that carry RCR gear!!

Pip
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on March 19, 2011, 08:16:34 AM
Does anyone have a photo of the Victorian rescue vans?? are they RCR vans or just CABA refill vans??? CFA dont have these van's and wont as they like their big rescue trucks and they have more gear on them than we do....
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 19, 2011, 02:47:05 PM
So the SOP say.
1xRescue
1xTANKER (for fire cover)

But in the real world where the CFS is short of crews and drivers. A CFS rescue van is a waste of time. How many brigades default? So a rescue appliance needs a pump(fire). It just make basic sense and could help save lives. How many times do rescue brigades respond with only 4 or 5 and 1 driver?
Yes other resources are responded often with delay.
 
Check the CFS pager site and listen to the scanner over the next few weeks. To see how many times crews default or have a slow response.

Why is it a waste of time? If anything it removes the slower response time. If the theory was applied correctly it would require seat only a crew of 3 (min crew as per SACFS SOP AND RCRRD). Lets not forget that a rescue van should require only a C class license, not an MR like current Rescue appliances. This eliminates common issue of not having a truck driver.

You have a larger pool of drivers, only requires 3 crew, has extinguishers on board, just needs a hose line from the Fire Appliance. As per SOP, a Fire Appliance will be responding, be it from the same brigade as the rescue van, or from an adjoining brigade. In your example of 4 or 5 person and 1 driver, why not have 3 take the Rescue van and get to work, while the other 1 and driver, wait a few minutes for crew, if not, then go mobile to provide fire protection? That is without considering the arrival of any other resources.

Does anyone have a photo of the Victorian rescue vans?? are they RCR vans or just CABA refill vans??? CFA dont have these van's and wont as they like their big rescue trucks and they have more gear on them than we do....

If it was just a CABA refill van, would it be called a "Rescue Van"??

A quick googling of Rescue Van (http://www.google.com.au/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=Rescue+Van&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=9de2688f68b31204) brings up links to the NSWFB Rescue Van (http://www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=500) seating 2 persons on a Merc Sprinter chassis. Can't find any links to any Victorian Rescue Van via google.

Let's not get started on the fact that CFS doesn't stow any Rescue gear beyond the BASIC MVA Rescue Hydraulic gear. It's shameful.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: Alan J on March 19, 2011, 08:57:54 PM
Thinking about the sort of gear that RCR vehicles carry,
and watching the way they work, I'm not sure a van is the
best place to start the build.

A 3T cab/chassis might be a better basis, with compartmented box.
All items directly accessible from exterior of the vehicle.
All 'heavies' on low-level slide-out trays, 'smalls' in labelled tubs.
Something like what this lot make. http://xl.com.au/index.php (http://xl.com.au/index.php)

Maybe a bit bigger. Like an SEM light pumper minus the pump & plumbing.
http://www.semfirerescue.com.au/pumpers.php (http://www.semfirerescue.com.au/pumpers.php)   Which should bring the
cost down. Or keep the tank & a dinky pump in case there's a delay
getting a fire appliance to the scene.

pretty pointless speculating at the moment though isn't it?
CFS ain't got any money to buy anything.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 19, 2011, 09:42:34 PM
Thinking about the sort of gear that RCR vehicles carry,
and watching the way they work, I'm not sure a van is the
best place to start the build.

A 3T cab/chassis might be a better basis, with compartmented box.
All items directly accessible from exterior of the vehicle.
All 'heavies' on low-level slide-out trays, 'smalls' in labelled tubs.
Something like what this lot make. http://xl.com.au/index.php (http://xl.com.au/index.php)

Or maybe, god forbid, we look at the Rescue appliances that nearly every other fire service in the country builds, and build one to a similar spec? The core issue here is that we are using the already sub-standard CFS "Rescue" stowage as a starting point and thus it leads us to a small vehicle. The Rescue stowage itself is abysmal, so why do we not work that out, and then find a vehicle that stows a full Rescue kit properly.

RCR is not the be all and end all of Rescue, contrary to what CFS would have us believe. But hey, I guess if we continue to downgrade our capability, then a station wagon with a combi tool and mini ram in the back will be fine. Ok, maybe without the ram. To keep costs down.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: misterteddy on March 20, 2011, 12:24:16 AM
RCR is not the be all and end all of Rescue, contrary to what CFS would have us believe. But hey, I guess if we continue to downgrade our capability, then a station wagon with a combi tool and mini ram in the back will be fine. Ok, maybe without the ram. To keep costs down.

don't really need a station wagon..... A little Brumby Ute with 2 people would be fine (makes response numbers/defaults and driver availability better) - smaller carbon footprint too to be topically politically correct.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 20, 2011, 08:50:39 AM
RCR is not the be all and end all of Rescue, contrary to what CFS would have us believe. But hey, I guess if we continue to downgrade our capability, then a station wagon with a combi tool and mini ram in the back will be fine. Ok, maybe without the ram. To keep costs down.

don't really need a station wagon..... A little Brumby Ute with 2 people would be fine (makes response numbers/defaults and driver availability better) - smaller carbon footprint too to be topically politically correct.

Scrap the brumby, I think the Combi Tool will fit in the boot of a 2 seat Smart Car! Just gotta get the charging stations installed about the response area...
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: CFS_Firey on March 20, 2011, 10:11:26 AM
Scrap the brumby, I think the Combi Tool will fit in the boot of a 2 seat Smart Car! Just gotta get the charging stations installed about the response area...

I think you'd find that in Australia those "charging stations" are called "petrol stations" and you'd need to find one every 600 Km.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2572427909_f4bffaf70f.jpg)(http://digiads.com.au/car-news/images/2009/07/thumbs/lrg_article_17067-img_0.jpg)

The added advantage of using a Smart car is you can use the car itself as a stabilisation block for anything bigger than a sedan!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 20, 2011, 10:32:21 AM
No no, we have to continue our moves to become an environmentally conscious emergency service.

Surely the Smart ED is the Rescue Vehicle of choice? A staggering range of 135km on a single charge should be perfect to get you to the incident and back! Just in time to plug her into the chargers back at station.

Although we may have to replace the Combi Tool with some Tinsnips and a claw hammer.
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: misterteddy on March 20, 2011, 12:28:33 PM
am I the only one that has an urge to grab those little cars, pull them backwards and let them go and then watch them race away?
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: pumprescue on March 20, 2011, 03:15:33 PM
Don't tell Arthur, he might need to go to Germany to investigate how to strip an already pathetic RCR kit, and install it into a Smart Car.

Hey new Chief, have you worked out how bad things are yet....
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: 6739264 on March 20, 2011, 08:09:03 PM
am I the only one that has an urge to grab those little cars, pull them backwards and let them go and then watch them race away?

God, I hope they make a little siren noise too!

Don't tell Arthur, he might need to go to Germany to investigate how to strip an already pathetic RCR kit, and install it into a Smart Car.

Hey new Chief, have you worked out how bad things are yet....

I think Arthur has been watching far too much MacGyver and trying to apply those principles to our Rescue stowage. All you need on a Rescue is a Swiss army knife, some chopsticks, a paperclip, rubberband and 3 socks.

A Heavy Rescue adds but a bigger Swiss army knife, a box of matches and a break-apart-McLeod tool!
Title: Re: New Rescue van for CFS
Post by: rescue5271 on March 21, 2011, 06:19:08 AM
I had a email from a friend in NSWFB and the VAN'S where only for light rescue in parts of NSW that also had other rescue service there like Ambo's. These vans are now being replaced with a stand along rescue truck or a pumper/tanker rescue. CFA have not and will not use a rescue van but rather use a stand alone rescue truck.