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Messages - Alan J

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401
Incident Operations / Re: 4th Alarm Grass - Belair (Urban rural interface)
« on: January 19, 2008, 02:35:10 PM »
Quote from: bittenyakka on January 19, 2008, 12:37:48 PM
media needs to tell these areas firmly and matter of fact that they will burn like Canberra.

Or California.

Blue you are absolutely right.  It's been the subject of many an emergency management paper & thesis.  We had a steady stream of people coming up to us during a short period we were standing by in one street (Burnell Drv) asking what they should do.
Q: "Have you prepared your house & property to defend it ?"
A: "Huh?"
No idea even of The CFS Message existence, let alone its content.  :roll:

As politically incorrect a thought as it is, the only way to make bush-fires relevant to most people is frequent fires close to home. And lose a house or two in each UI suburb to bushfire every 7 years or so.   :evil:

But Blue, your post has challenged me to re-think my attitude to these people. 
I shall have to work on patience & rein-in the sarcasm.  Or maybe not...  :wink:


402
Incident Operations / Re: 4th Alarm Grass - Belair (Urban rural interface)
« on: January 18, 2008, 08:33:56 PM »
Quote from: mack on January 18, 2008, 03:12:15 PM
Well actually Cherry 34 was COQ to belair for a while,

a shade under 2 minutes by my sundial. Didn't see any other of the named "CoQ" appliances there, even though they were called before CG34 (almost everyone got called before CG34, but that's another story...) It might be more true to call Belair the staging point than anything else.

Agree on the media.  Saint Phil Cheney of CSIRO described the political & funding imperatives of "...big fires, heroes, helicopters..."   Would be good to embed newsies in crews early.  The vision would be great, although the audio might be unuseable until after midnight (except on SBS - why is that man shouting in 'French'?)  :lol:

Shouldn't be difficult to negotiate some sort of useful use-of-footage agreement.


403
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS COQ to CFS
« on: January 18, 2008, 07:50:38 PM »
Quote from: bittenyakka on January 18, 2008, 06:50:17 PM
well what do you satisfy as enough risk? (how long is a piece of string) 

Probably the only place that risks are assigned fixed values is in an SFEC. (That's more about how much money the CFS will spend in an area than anything else.)

Captains, Groupies & RO's are supposed to keep across the dynamic operational stuff in their areas - the variable factors like beginning & end of school holidays, weather, travel times, crew availability, gut feeling, etc. Then they decide how long their particular piece of string is on a given time & day.  If it comes up short, they negotiate CoQ with the next layer up.  They might get it, they might not.  Depends on what else is happening, how good a case they can present, & how far up the food-chain it has to go for approval.  Or at least, that's how the books of words indicate it is supposed to work.

Is that a long-winded enough non-answer ?   :-D


404
Country Fire Service / Re: Stirling CFS
« on: January 18, 2008, 07:11:42 PM »
Quote from: rescue5271 on January 18, 2008, 06:49:41 PM
One would hope that on of the 12 appliances that are still in service will be kept and given to the heritage committee... Is there any need for them to have a tanker with the one's they already have in the group??

Reticulated water in the Hills is often pretty ordinary, & it's so built-up there's often not a lot of static water available to draw from. Fuel loads are through the roof especially on private lands. Councils don't have their tanker fleet to call on any more. Better the CFS gets even more of them.


405
Country Fire Service / Re: Stirling CFS
« on: January 18, 2008, 06:54:19 PM »
Quote from: bittenyakka on January 18, 2008, 05:02:52 PM
I heard a their current pumper will become a rescue pumper and a 34p will take hazmat and a 24 type rural appliance will remain and they will lose tanker and 12. of course CFS will never ever let us know

That is supposed to depend on what's in their SFEC.
After that, if the experiences of Burnside & Eden Hills are a guide, the brigade will get a lot of say in the final mix & details of build.

If Mt.Barker is a guide, they'll get what they are given.  :evil:


406
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS COQ to CFS
« on: January 18, 2008, 06:47:52 PM »
Quote from: bittenyakka on January 18, 2008, 05:10:37 PM
I have noticed more and more that CFS are doing COQ into other brigades stations is there any reason for this or is it only hen there are large incidents eg brown hill creek and hence lots of appliance stripped from an area.

also what warrants a COQ is there an average no of calls that the station must do because it could be very boring doing a COQ in some stations.

Logically, CoQ would be happening based on risk & consequences rather than number of calls, although call numbers would factor into it.  For CFS it is a mix of group, region and HQ preplanned triggers to request CoQ move-ups.  No plan likely = no CoQ request unless the next layer up calls for it.  I speculate that for MFS it would be HQ pre-planning only?

 

407
SAMFS / Re: False Alarm Charges
« on: January 15, 2008, 10:35:30 PM »
Quote from: SA Firey on January 15, 2008, 02:39:30 PM
I think you meant can think of one company mack.....and I have a fair idea of who you mean,we get calls to their jobs regularly,only to be told by the resident we rang the monitoring centre and told them it was a false alarm :evil:

Hopefully, a few bills handed to property owners with the suggestion that they take it up with the security company will go a long way towards fixing it.

Also, it seems that cancelling or down-grading a 000 call to MFS or SAAS cannot be done except if an MFS or SAAS person on-scene makes the call.  Evidently a CFS officer is not qualified to determine that a small pile of leaves smouldering on a concrete driveway has been extinguished & poses no life-threat.  :-D  Nor are they qualified to recognise that a kid who, having fallen off their bike, jumped back on & ridden away, has in fact, left the scene of the accident.  Only a paramedic is qualified to notice that the kid is no longer there...  :roll:


408
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« on: January 09, 2008, 11:41:39 AM »
Quote from: CaptCom on January 09, 2008, 07:49:53 AM
Many of us had individual lawyers to help protect us...and they were working in partnership with the Crown...

Supplied by CFS? SAVFA?  or at own expense?


409
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« on: January 08, 2008, 05:51:54 PM »
Quote from: bajdas on January 08, 2008, 02:21:30 PM
...but their job is to support/protect their individual client, using whatever they can within the rules of the court.

And that covers it in a nutshell.  Everyone else is expendable, if doing so paints their client in a better light.

Interesting point about an employer assuming vicarious liability came out of a confrence my wife attended in the nursing game.  In a medical context, an employer's liability insurer's lawyer is there to protect their client (the employer) to reduce the insurer's expenses. Unless the policy has specific indemnity clauses including employees, the employee is not actually covered.  The insurer can only be relied upon to protect the employee to the extent that doing so benefits the insurer.

Anyone with more legal knowledge or hands-on experience than I care to comment about how it has worked with CFS assuming vicarious liability for volunteers as per the Act?  For example, did the CFS lawyers at the Wangary Inquest work to show that the people on the spot did their best within their experience & knowledge (i.e. were not personally negligent), and given the thin resources available ?  Or did they appear to be working to white-wash the CFS organisation, potentially at the expense of individuals ?

cheers


410
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« on: January 07, 2008, 11:14:41 PM »
Quote from: CaptCom on January 07, 2008, 07:44:56 AM
I have heard from a very reliable source that NOTHING from the coroner's court is taken into consideration for the class action....be interested to know who you were talking to at the NYE party chook...

Unfortunately, we are also breaking new ground as no other fire service has been here before....even the Canberra fire class action were waiting on our findings..

'Twas me, not chook.
Bloke I was talking to was short, mid-40's, light brown hair. Can't remember the name. Comment was in context that they'd be looking at what would be admissable in a class action, & hoping to use sworn statements from the inquest, particularly stuff that was queried & tested under the Inquest's broader rules of evidence/inquiry & found to be accurate & sound.   Note that he (& I) used the word "MAY" (with emphasis) not 'will' or 'can'.  Sounds like there might be a fair bit of (expensive) legal argument about The Rools before the slanging match proper begins...

7 days in the witness box at the inquest, eh.  That sucks, big time.  Only ever been to one inquest a long time ago when I was in SES. The various lawyers lined up to take shots at my Unit Controller, tried to put words in his mouth, made suggestions / accusations / etc about what he was doing & thinking.  Came away thinking that 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean might be a good start, but unsatisfying unless they were all breathing when chucked in.

cheers

411
SA Firefighter General / Re: Interesting Fire and Emergency Related Paging
« on: January 02, 2008, 10:55:38 PM »
wonder if it has anything to do with

15:54:18 02-01-08 TRUR: HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL, WHAT BETTER WAY TO WORK OFF A HANGOVER AND ALL THAT FOOD THAN ATTENDING TRAINING TONIGHT? - EXERCISES INVOLVING - DRAUGHTING, WATER RELAY, SMD 1, RUNNING GRASSFIRES AND MOPPING UP TACTICS - TIMED TEAM BASED EVENTS CFS Truro Info 

and/or

17:33:54 02-01-08 MFS: INC # 69 - 02/01/08 17:33,RESPOND GRASS FIRE,TRURO CFS,TRURO, MAP 0 0 0 ,,ST KITTS, 4KN NW OF TRURO,SAIR55 TRUR00 NTPA19*CFSRES: CFS Truro Response
then
20:56:18 02-01-08 TRUR: TRURO 3-4 & 2-4 ARE NOW BACK AT STATION, RESPONDING AS NORMAL 2/01/2008 8:55:59 PM CFS Truro Info



412
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« on: January 02, 2008, 09:56:39 AM »
Quote from: chook on December 31, 2007, 08:16:33 AM
Right on but remember its not like criminal court either.
As government organisations we can't be above the law, however in saying that the unique nature of our business needs to be taken into account when we are within the court system i.e OHS&W prosecutions, criminal matters, civil proceedings.

Strangest coincidence.  NYE party I attended was introduced to a chap who is a crown solicitor, has been involved in the Wangary case.  He said at this stage, the state will be contesting this suit, pretty much for reasons I stated earlier.  They are hoping to reduce the exposure & demands on volunteers involved as much as possible.  Material from inquest -may- be enough to avoid calling some individuals as witnesses. Depends on how rough the plainiffs' lawyers want to play...
cheers

413
Country Fire Service / Re: Introduction of aerial applainces to the CFS
« on: December 31, 2007, 01:44:41 PM »
Quote from: chook on December 31, 2007, 08:18:32 AM
I do - does it involve abseiling? :-D

Nope.
Figure to light the back-burn two stories below the fire floor,
and hope the wind don't change. Mostly worked ok on KI.
Just waiting for a CoQ to Wakefield so we can try it out.  :-D

Of course if you wanted to get all sophisticated about it, there
is a water cannon version of the Skycrane. That might make Fireblade
a little happier.


414
Country Fire Service / Re: Introduction of aerial applainces to the CFS
« on: December 31, 2007, 07:55:06 AM »
Quote from: fireblade on December 31, 2007, 07:28:11 AM
Are you guy's already on the New Years Eve jungle juice
a sky crane bombing a structural or industrial incident,
It wolud cause my damage than good
now I've heard it all.

Oh no you haven't !!
Wanna hear our plan for combatting high-rise building fires ?


415
Country Fire Service / Re: New BWC`s
« on: December 31, 2007, 07:49:23 AM »
Quote from: pipster on December 30, 2007, 11:00:49 PM
In the Barossa, the local Groups have been very active in organising local companies to provide 31,000 litre tankers, within very short time frames, and I believe at no cost to the CFS....so some community spirit still exists!!

Pip
At Robertstown Fire the other summer, there were 3 or 4 Booths wine tankers to reload from by day 2. Unfortunately, it was very diluted & didn't taste nice.  ;-)
cheers
AJ


416
Country Fire Service / Re: December Volunteer
« on: December 30, 2007, 09:44:18 PM »
Quote from: Robert34 on December 28, 2007, 08:49:33 AM
Did anyone read that article about the fire fighting trailer the CFS are thinking about purchasing and issuing to remote communities in the North/North Eastern Parts of South Australia as well as communities on the APY indigenous lands

Looking at the pics i can safely say that the trailer once modified will show alot of promise and will look good as a new addition to the CFS fleet of appliances and trailers  :-)

It's a good thing in my view. 
The NSW RFS has been doing something similar for years, but I heard something about them abandoning it due to OH&S concerns about how they are used in the real world. Aparently, farmers & bureaucrats have very different ideas on what constitutes "safe working practices"... 


417
Country Fire Service / Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« on: December 30, 2007, 09:31:00 PM »
Quote from: rescue5271 on December 30, 2007, 03:40:43 PM
It would be good for all if this was settled before it went back to court I am sure that those who where in the box's dont want to go over what was said or done again....

If they can settle out of court without handing over $$, maybe.
If settling out-of-court means handing over money, then I think it's a bad idea. 
All that will do is open the flood-gates for everybody who has ever had a fire damage their property to demand, and expect, compensation from the CFS for failure to contain it.  May as well set up a automatic teller in Waymouth St...

It also establishes a legal precedent that if a fire gets away from us, we are automatically to blame.  A a mate bleakly pointed out after a fatal MVA, we did NOT cause the idiot to crash into the tree, nor light the fire.  We just tried to help out afterwards to reduce the consequences of the original mishap. Sometimes there just isn't a happy ending.

As hard as it will be for everybody who has already been dragged through the mill, I think the CFS has to fight it, and support their volunteers through it.  One good thing - a court of law has rules of evidence & rules about how witnesses are treated.  The free-for-all-rip-them-to-pieces of the coroner's court isn't allowed.

cheers
AJ

418
Country Fire Service / Re: Introduction of aerial applainces to the CFS
« on: December 30, 2007, 09:09:03 PM »
Quote from: chook on December 30, 2007, 09:35:57 AM
Now wouldn't that look great on the evening news :-D
You may need a couple of them - it would look better (think Apocolypse Now).

Ahhh, but it IS an aerial appliance. That's the point.
If we got two, then we could do one in orange & white chequer,
set up an RCR pod & hand all non-metro RCR over to the SES.

On to the important details...
It would need a Really Loud PA for "Ride of the Valkyries" to be
heard over the incredible racket they make. Strathfield's ought
to have something suitable ... I wonder who does 32Vdc -> 12Vdc
converters ?


419
SA Firefighter General / Re: Reminder: CDMA closure scheduled for 28 Jan 08
« on: December 30, 2007, 08:13:21 PM »
Quote from: Robert34 on December 30, 2007, 11:34:24 AM
My 3G phone with Vodafone works real well as i can sometimes get full signal for a brief second on my front porch but there are lots of deadspots around the place so I'm guessing thats because the Analogue system is still in operation

So its best to wait and see if all Next G and 3G phones get full signal coverage once the CDMA network is shut down in January  :-)

Robert
If your 3G phone is with Vodafone then you are not on the Telstra CDMA network & none of any of this affects you. 

If you want wider coverage or better signal, you have 2 options:
One is to convince Voda that they will make more money than it will cost them to upgrade the signal strength in your area.

The other is a change of provider to a carrier whose network covers your area better. There are several completely separate networks.  There are places where several Telcos have mounted their antennae on the same pole, but they remain separate networks. 
- Telstra 2GSM,
- Telstra/Hutchison("3") 3G,
- Telstra Next G,
- Telstra CDMA,
- Optus 2GSM,
- Voda 2GSM.
Both Optus & Voda offer 3G products, but I don't know whether they have built their own 3G networks, or are merely reselling Telstra/Hutchison 3G.

cheers
AJ


420
Country Fire Service / Re: Introduction of aerial applainces to the CFS
« on: December 29, 2007, 08:40:33 PM »
Quote from: pipster on December 27, 2007, 10:56:06 PM

Aerials certainly have their uses, and in many CFS areas, they may be very useful.  In many other CFS areas, they are not, due to the limitations outlined above

Pip

People, the solution is staring us in the face.
Get an Ericsson Aircrane !!

No probs with driveways, no probs with finding water.
No probs with traffic or response times.
No probs with us dumb CFS vollies getting confused
  about what exactly is an aerial appliance.

Strewth, CFS could even lend it to the Mets for their
factory fires.  Since everything at those ends up
lying on the ground anyway, 9 tonnes of water from
100M every few minutes would -have- to help with that.
A couple of decent fires would even solve the algae
problem in the Torrens Lake.

Best of all, it would also stop the flow of those
stupid, stupid letters to the editor each fire season.
(At least until the suckers find out how much it costs
per hour to run.)

 :-D

AJ

421
SA Firefighter General / Reminder: CDMA closure scheduled for 28 Jan 08
« on: December 28, 2007, 01:47:34 PM »
Just a reminder that the scheduled date is 28th Jan 2008.

If you haven't changed over your CDMA mobile before that date, you can probably expect delays for a few days afterwards as shops get crowded with many people who "were too busy" :| or "forgot" :oops: or "didn't believe it affected them" :?

If migrating to Telstra's "Next G" network rather than taking opportunity to sample a competitor's offerings, make sure you get a handset which is sensitive enough to work where you need it, or has a compatible car/external antenna kit.
I strongly suggest choosing a handset with a "rural tick" on it, as mine worked on KI at times when others did not :lol:  Only a couple of dead spots that I found.

At this stage there is little likelihood of this date being pushed out, as signal strength coverage has -generally- been matched or exceeded by Telstra's new network (yes, there are exceptions - if you know of one, for goodness sake report it so it can be fixed).
 
cheers
AJ


422
Country Fire Service / Re: should all cfs/mfs stations take over rcr from ses
« on: December 26, 2007, 11:36:01 AM »
Quote from: 6739264 on December 26, 2007, 06:00:58 AM
I said what the fire service dos best is rescue, not necessarily the CFS.

And yeah, the CFS does tend to cock up a fair number of fires it attends.

Still doesn't answer the question - if you don't believe the CFS can't be relied on to do a simple thing like put out fires, why on earth do you want to reassign a complex task like RCR to them (us) ?

AJ

423
Country Fire Service / Re: should all cfs/mfs stations take over rcr from ses
« on: December 25, 2007, 10:08:56 PM »
Quote from: 6739264 on December 24, 2007, 05:39:08 AM
Ah, but what the fire service does best *includes* rescue :)

I do wish you'd make up your mind lad.
To quote you from another thread:
---------------------
"16,000 volunteers, 8,000 have half a clue, 1,000 can do the job proficiently.

Thats pretty much what it boils down to sadly. I know far too many people have their heart in the right place but the ability just isn't quite there, no matter how hard people try to help them out."
---------------------
So either you are stating that on the whole, the fire service is no use at putting out fires either, or you are a troll.

Which is it ?

AJ


424
Country Fire Service / Re: should all cfs/mfs stations take over rcr from ses
« on: December 25, 2007, 09:59:32 PM »
Quote from: sesroadcrashrescue on December 25, 2007, 04:57:55 PM
still why would CFS want to take RCR away from SES?

Where CFS is not the RCR responder, the locals probably don't particularly want to be. The paid staff long ago got over the supposed turf wars. Central funding & GRN have fixed response & equipment issues.  There is no valid reason to so so except where the accredited SES RCR Unit can no longer meet response criteria. And then only if the local CFS brigade a) can & b) is willing to do so.

Mostly, it is likely that just a few theorists on the list want to do so. For reasons that aren't relevant to reality in those areas where SES are the accredited RCR responder.

cheers
AJ (CFS)

425
Country Fire Service / Re: should all cfs/mfs stations take over rcr from ses
« on: December 25, 2007, 02:16:52 PM »
Quote from: 6739264 on December 25, 2007, 11:25:49 AM
Thats why both fire cover AND Rescue should be turned out. A rescue truck can roll with 2 crew, the rest jump on the pump?

I agree.
They don't have to be from the same service, and the people on them don't have to be fully cross-trained.  They simply need to have enough appreciation of each others' jobs to work together, & assist the other if required.
Having different PPE colour helps the I/C identify who has what skills.




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