should all cfs/mfs stations take over rcr from ses

[chook]

Number not based on incidents - but units certified by the state rescue board & same as Victoria. I would not be surprised considering NSWFB covers Sydney, Newcastle & Wollongong (& has retained all over the place), and like all fire services counts RCR's they attend whether they are doing the extracation or providing fire cover. Interesting that you mention the VRA & NSWFB in the same sentence, considering NSWFB were trying to take Rescue off VRA in Penrith (an area of Sydney I know very well), I actually agreed with the reasons for it just the method was very poor.
And you might be surprised to know that in rural areas the VRA & SES work closely together (same membership support each other on ops etc)in some districts, they have an MOU so the infighting would stop and resources would not be duplicated.
So yep anyone can come up with stats to support their argument & if CFS/MFS could guarantee 24/7 cover & meet the standards of emergency response for Road Crash Rescue (in people, equipment-no combitools, training), meet the standard for fire coverage (& no not using the rescue crew), keep up with all of the training you guys do & finally it improves service to the community - then why not get rid of the SES all together. However before everyone cheers this years fire season is looking to be really bad.
So while you guys are out doing what you were formed to do - fight fires, who is going to look after rescue? And be honest can every brigade/ Station in the State get a full crew? I already know the answer, we have similar issues. However to meet the Standard I only need 4, think about that.
And just to clear something up I'm not blinded by the Orange, when I first took over the unit I'm currently in ( I was bought in from a near by unit) I considered handing RCR over to the local fire service & wind the unit up. After doing the SWOT analysis, it was not as simple as first thought (interservice rivalry between the fire services would have meant that the other SES units picking up a lot more work which they didn't need) & there was no guarantee that the situation would improve.
A far simpler solution was to change the membership of the unit(which was painfulfor those involved), luckily we also attracted another very experienced operator & some new people who will do ok. As I said above if handing rescue over to someone else would provide a better service I would have-less grey hairs  .
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts

[RescueHazmat]

Just for info the CFS also only requires 4 to roll an appliance.  - Just for info

[chook]

Thanks mate - I was aware of that (also read the fire ground practices on the subject)interestingly the Victorians run with two. I've asked our gurus about whether we should try that.Opinion was not a good idea - relies too much on other agencies who may not be at full strength. I think going forward some radical thinking from all three services in consultation with SAAS will need to happen to fix the issues with road crash rescue around crewing issues, when to call rescue/ fire cover (the time delay between SAAS and everyone else being call is sometimes ridiculous). Cheers

[rescue5271]

The Victorian MFB run with 2 guys in their rescue appliances as all MFB firefighters are trained in RCR,CFA run with crew of 3/4 as well as volunteer back up...Not too sure about SES but from what i have seen at call outs they have  crews of 4...

[chook]

The minimum standard is -
Crewing
It is a requirement that an RR response consist of a minimum of two RR-qualified persons per vehicle per turnout, adequate EVS drivers and sufficient personnel
for back up in the event of escalation of an event.
This is straight out of their arrangments manual, however as I said above it would be tight for non full time units.
cheers

[Firey9119]

all i have to say is-----

can anyone remember why the fire service took over rcr from sapol???

if i remember correctly it was cos sapol could not provide fire cover at rcr and it was safer for fire service to do it!!

if this is correct i have one question why is ses doing it

[uniden]

SAPOL only did RCR in Adelaide and surrounding areas. At the time there were not many CFS brigades with RCR gear. As there became more CFS brigades equipped with the gear as well as MFS I guess there was less requirement for SAPOL to do it. Some of the country SES units have been doing RCR for years, probably as they were the service in those particular towns to have the gear.

[RescueHazmat]

all i have to say is-----

can anyone remember why the fire service took over rcr from sapol???

if i remember correctly it was cos sapol could not provide fire cover at rcr and it was safer for fire service to do it!!

if this is correct i have one question why is ses doing it

Other agencies all over the country do RCR.. Such as Ambulance services, SES, RAR groups, Police etc..

[6739264]

Other agencies all over the country do RCR.. Such as Ambulance services, SES, RAR groups, Police etc..

I think that you'll find that will start to change in the coming years. In some areas there is a huge duplication of resources and its being sorted out. It's not terribly smart, financially or otherwise, to have multiple agencies all doing RCR.

[rescue5271]

Fire service in Tassie now do all metro RCR and in the country ses and I think there is only one country TFS that do RCR.Ambo's gave it up early this year,if you look in NSW they have more agency's do RCR than I have hot dinners in a week....

[6739264]

Fire service in Tassie now do all metro RCR and in the country ses and I think there is only one country TFS that do RCR.Ambo's gave it up early this year,if you look in NSW they have more agency's do RCR than I have hot dinners in a week....

Most states only have a couple of agencies doing the majority of Rescue work. WA and NSW certainly have the most diverse range of agencies performing Rescue work - In WA they all come under FESA, whereas they are separate agencies over in NSW.

Its interesting that in Victoria and NSW there are a couple of independent RCR service providers, namely the VRA and the S&R Squads.

[chook]

9119 - Quite simple we are rescue! If you ever read the act its in the list of things we do.
We do national competency training every three years, we have arguably the best RCR gear in the country (in our part of the state anyway)- ask the SAMFS, CFS guys who have seen it up close.
And we don't have to worry about fire fighting, BA, Hazmat etc.
In other words we are specialist in the field, Victoria rural is mostly SES RCR, NSW is moving the same way - VRA & SES are constantly working together to achieve this & other states are mainly SES RCR teams despite what ever the umbrella organisation is called. And the world champion rapid intervention team is an SES unit.
Finally I'm surprised this subject is still alive since you firies are so busy with KI & other fires, a recent exercise involving Hazmat & RCR proved to me that one service can't do everything.
So until someone can prove to me an all in one service can do better than we do,
please leave things alone! At least our tassy friends have seen the light

[chook]

Sorry for repeating myself just I get a bit passionate when the ill informed bang this drum.
Here is some food for thought from recent exchanges between various CFS members and myself regarding RCR.
"Didn't realise you guys carried that much equipment - we couldn't fit all of that on a rescue pumper"
"So you guys are trained under the National competency - answer yes"
"Nice gear we didn't have that when I was in a rescue brigade"
"I don't know how you guys can do it - I couldn't"
"that was a slick rescue by SES well done" SAAS crew at a debrief after an exercise.
Senior CFS member to a BFF1 group " these trucks are set are pretty much the same, this is where you will find the RCR gear (hydraulics)"
As you can see there is a lot of misinformation & lack of knowledge out there.
That is why every opportunity I get to educate other services in what we do & the equipment we have I seize it with both hands.
Despite some issues within our service which are being slowly addressed we are proud of what we do & think on the whole do a pretty good job.
So for those who want to push SES out of rescue(including RCR), do yourself a favour & visit your local unit, have a talk to them & work out ways to work together instead. And if you want to visit our unit just give us a call - we will even let you have a play Just think you might want to actually join us!
Thats all from me cheers

 

[6739264]

In other words we are specialist in the field, Victoria rural is mostly SES RCR, NSW is moving the same way - VRA & SES are constantly working together to achieve this & other states are mainly SES RCR teams despite what ever the umbrella organisation is called. And the world champion rapid intervention team is an SES unit.
Finally I'm surprised this subject is still alive since you firies are so busy with KI & other fires, a recent exercise involving Hazmat & RCR proved to me that one service can't do everything.

Some states may have a high proportion of SES units, but often you'll find that the fire services turnout to rescues far more often.

If you want to go on past results, then yes Laura SES did place 1st in Rapid Intervention in 2006, but NSWFB Burwood placed 1st Overall in 2002.   

Heres a question, how do you deal with an RCR involving Hazmat? You can't have untrained people doing the RCR, nor can you have untrained people in the Hazmat PPE...

I've no issues with the SES, just the way resources are allocated. It seems to me to be easier and smarted to have a single agency doing Fire & Rescue as there is so much role and resource duplication - Even in simple things like appliance stowage.

[chook]

In theory I agree I think we have similar thoughts, however I'm a realist (it might be my age or having spent a few years in government & the private sector) I personally don't think it would work. For example currently in SES the busiest RCR units get the latest gear & its not just based on cost, the older equipment is serviced and issued to the less exposed rural units and then to metro for USAR.
The SMAG (subject matter advisory group for RCR made up of vollies & payed staff) work out what is the best in current equipment, techniques & training and it is rolled out. The system is not perfect but it works.
Under your system rescue would compete with structural fire, wild fire, hazmat etc for dollars. The latest and greatest gear would end up with high profile metro units/ brigades. High risk rural units would be second (maybe)& others third. And then the competition would be between $1.2 million comms trucks, hook trucks (sorry couldn't resist), sky cranes, weird projects that keep saying the same thing etc. Rural SES units would fold as there would be nothing for them to do, RCR is our bread and butter! Then when the big one happens(What ever that may be) you won't have the people- it would be the same as pre SES - fire services can't cope etc(THATS WHY WE WERE FORMED REMEMBER?). Then there is the training = if you find it hard to get people to keep current in BA & burn over drills, how the filtered are they going to stay current in RCR? (We do a refresher every three years regardless)
Finally if you think SES members would come madly rushing to the fire services, then you are wrong. In SES we are fairly independent & we like it that way I for one can't handle the by the numbers system that CFS uses or the group structure that the fire services have. I like our flatter structure and couldn't handle your system.
So instead my vision of the future is this:- combined fire services both payed & vollie doing fire in all parts of the state & rescue at full time stations & strategically located rescue units across the state wearing orange & called State Emergency Service. Both services managed by SAFECOM, SES properly resourced could finally to be able to carry out its daily role of rescue & also its civil defence role properly in all units.
In areas where numbers are low of course a combined unit makes sense fire side trained by fire & the rescue side trained by SES. (Onkaparinga, Blanchtown,Bordertown?)
Duplication - in areas where SES operates then the fire services should not have rescue equipment, only their combitools to break into buildings on fire. If they have RCR gear then they shouldn't that is duplication.
As far as your Hazmat question - after watching a Hazmat team set up and do its thing the Golden hour doesn't mean much so its not relevent, fuels of course are managed differently & we have the gear that can operate in that environment.
So I guess the real question is should SES take over ALL rescue in areas not under the control of full time fire crews. Now there is something to think about.
cheers

[6739264]

Of course its going to be a very difficult thing to implement, and with some of the attitudes between members of the services, it certainly wouldn't be a smooth thing.

In terms of how it would be funded, it wouldn't necessarily 'compete' with all the other roles that the Fire Service provides. The funding that was once allocated to the SES would be carried into the budget of the Fire Service. Im not talking about removing RCR from the SES, im talking about rolling the SES into the fire service, as it once was.

Think about the duplication of resources on appliances. Stokes litters, rapid intervention tools, power saws, recip saws, lighting, cordage, etc etc. A high proportion of stowage on a rescue appliance has a dual role at the scene of a fire. If things are kept separate and you remove anything vaguely rescue from a fire truck, then you are going to need to call the SES to fires for RIT, Salvage and Ventialtion. Then they need to be trained in BA, have new PPE and are essentially a fire truck without the water, hoses or pump.

Its much easier to take that SES Rescue truck, give it a paint job, and combine it into the local fire service.\

I don't know who you were doing Hazmat with, but it doesnt take that long to put on a Gas Suit, and walk 50 meters into the hot zone and get to work. Its far better than dealing with the Hazmat for god knows how long, making the area safe THEN having to extricate the poor bloke in the vehicle.

[chook]

As I said I agree in theory - in practice who knows & reading the final submission the CFSVA has put to the F&ES review, I wouldn't trust the fire services to take care of us! And the fire services already have rescue only appliances, so they have experience with fire trucks without water. We already have some BA trained operators - the other gear you talk about is low cost (except for the Rapid Intervention Tools - combi tools which are not RCR equipment). And how often would you need/ use a basket litter at a fire? Again sounds like rescue to me . As I said great idea in theory, in practice???
Hasn't work in any state in Australia so far, the US is different they have the population base, England the same without the distances to travel. The reality is at the end of the day, we that is SES won't have much say in the matter at all. If the government want it changed, it will change.
Wonder why CFS didn't pick up USAR, another high profile big dollar rescue task
Anyway think I have said enough on this subject - cheers

[6739264]

I'm sorry, its my fault for trying to think of a wonderful happy place where everyone gets along and every has the interests of the community at heart. Its not like that now, and nor will it ever be. Maybe its just like communism, its great on paper, terrible in practice.

Of course the fire service has rescue only appliances, the thing is that they can be (and often are) pressed into a firefighting support role. I just like having that flexibility there. Combi tools are primarily an RCR tool, using one to gain entry to a building is a very slow process as they are not designed specifically for that purpose.

Stokes litter at a fire? One of the easiest ways of removing a downed firefighter from inside a building.

Why didnt the CFS pick up USAR? Simple really - we only do bushfires, according to head office 

[Mike]

Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?

[chook]

I used to believe in the perfect world too unfortunately I'm getting older & wiser . Combitools are not recommended in the RCR directory -dson't meet the standard (not my idea its in the book).
I know I said I was finished on this subject but in a fully combined service, I would think the bean counters (after all that would be the only reason it would happen ) in our area there would only be two primary rescue units not the current 4 - talk about spread a bit thin!
As I said in a perfect world a great idea - reality the only reason it would happen is to save money.
cheers

[6739264]

Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?

You could try to set up every Pumper as a Rescue Pumper, but my god, think of the cost blowout.

[Mike]

Or better still not commit the rescue resource to a fire.... Now there's an idea for you!   

[6739264]

Or better still not commit the rescue resource to a fire.... Now there's an idea for you!   

Theres more to Rescue than RCR, and the gear carried on a Rescue appliance can be very useful at fires 

Now brigades who have their groups rescue resource supplying lines into a fire, rather than just sitting up the road as a tool resource, THATS an idea for you!

[mack]

Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?

ahh exactly why i like stand alone rescues, some dont though...

[6739264]

Is the fact that rescue appliances get 'pressed' into firefighting roles one of the downfalls, as you end up having one of a very thinly spread resource being committed and not readily available?

ahh exactly why i like stand alone rescues, some dont though...

I totally agree. Stand alone rescues are never at risk of being caught with lines inside a fire, and depending on the number of seat, can get out the door faster than waiting and waiting to fill seats.