Author Topic: Emergency Driving/Traffic Marshalling Course (Read 25307 times)

chook · « **Reply #25 on:** December 31, 2007, 07:10:26 PM »

Seriously? You always driver a truck like that? Sorry that is BS! Driving P1 or 2 may be the same in the City (I doubt it) but driving a 12 tonne truck @ 130 is not the same as normal driving!
And motorist act differently when they see the lights or hear the siren & its not predictable what they will do.
Add adrenaline, middle of the night & apprehension/fear into the mix and disaster is just around the corner.
And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, hold a federal advanced driving certificate & over 25 years in heavy vehicles including some very specialised ones.
ALL emergency service drivers should have specialist training it is unfortunate that our collective services choose not to provide it.
cheers

Pipster · « **Reply #26 on:** December 31, 2007, 08:22:44 PM »

Emergency Driving is so different to normal driving - be it in the City or in Country areas.

I have driven under emergency conditions in Fire, Ambulance and Police vehicles, have undertaken emergency driving courses in both Police & Ambulance services, and it is nothing like driving under normal conditions.

As Chook points out, traffic behaves very differently in front of lights & sirens. As a driver (and as passenger) you have to be even more alert than under normal conditions, and be very prepared for other drivers doing stupid things in front of you...

And if emergency driving was the same as normal driving, why do all services have specific SOP's relating to it, and legislators given emergency services special powers on the road?

Because emergency driving is different, I ensure the drivers within my brigade are selected very carefully, and work through a graduated program, to ensure they are suitable for normal driving, and for emergencies. Some who are suitable for normal conditions are not suitable for emergency driving.....

Pip

chook · « **Reply #27 on:** December 31, 2007, 10:07:58 PM »

Thanks Pip

mack · « **Reply #28 on:** December 31, 2007, 11:40:20 PM »

Quote from: chook on December 31, 2007, 07:10:26 PM

Seriously? You always driver a truck like that? Sorry that is BS! Driving P1 or 2 may be the same in the City (I doubt it) but driving a 12 tonne truck @ 130 is not the same as normal driving!
And motorist act differently when they see the lights or hear the siren & its not predictable what they will do.
Add adrenaline, middle of the night & apprehension/fear into the mix and disaster is just around the corner.
And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, hold a federal advanced driving certificate & over 25 years in heavy vehicles including some very specialised ones.
ALL emergency service drivers should have specialist training it is unfortunate that our collective services choose not to provide it.
cheers

i think you missinterpreted his post entirely mate.

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #29 on:** January 01, 2008, 12:11:45 PM »

I agree you have special conditions under lights , be it 10 kph above the limit, but i was referring to Emergency vehicles under lights only driving 80+ kph in 50 kph zones... this is an accident around the corner as chook put it..
Doesn't the passenger have any say in what the driver of an emergency vehicle is doing???

mack · « **Reply #30 on:** January 01, 2008, 12:58:43 PM »

maybe if they outrank the driver...

id be voicing my concerns anyway, and have done so in the past.

RescueHazmat · « **Reply #31 on:** January 01, 2008, 01:03:13 PM »

Even if they don't outrank the driver, under OHS you would be well within your rights to tell the driver to pull over so you can get out as you didn't feel safe..

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #32 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:43:37 PM »

Thank you Rescue Hazmat
At least some agree that you shouldn't drive a 5 tonne plus vehicle, be it an Emergency vehicle at excessive speed, Regardless if you have been woken at 2am, second call for night,let some one else drive.You may as well be driving while intoxicated. Drive like that under code green .. YOU WOULD LOOSE YOUR LICENCE !!

chook · « **Reply #33 on:** January 01, 2008, 03:04:05 PM »

No don't think I misinterpreted any thing, emergency response driving is emergency response driving. Whether L/S or just lights, if you have them on you are Urgent duty driving. You have exemptions under the road traffic act, SOP's control what you can and can't do e.g we have a 20 kph over the posted seed limit rule. Changing drivers may be an option for the full time service, not practical for the vollies as everyone is in the same boat. The OIC of the vehicle can ask a driver to slow down & yes a passanger can ask to be let out.
Driving code green was not mentioned in the original post, mind you as officer in charge of 3 vehicles I would kick anyone in the a*** if they were returning home driving like they were driving to a response!
As said previously Urgent duty driving is different/potentially dangerous and the OIC has to be damn sure that the level of driving is consistant with the level required.
cheers

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #34 on:** January 01, 2008, 03:17:24 PM »

Chooks Quote
"mind you as officer in charge of 3 vehicles I would kick anyone in the a*** if they were returning home driving like they were driving to a response!"

How can you be officer in charge of 3 vehicles

?
You could only be in charge of one of those vehicles

chook · « **Reply #35 on:** January 01, 2008, 03:43:36 PM »

quite correct - except when you are the Unit Manager, Brigade Captain, Station Officer who is ultimately responsible for the actions of all of the people under their control

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #36 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:22:54 PM »

So this is the kind of Emergency Driving we are talking about

http://www.livevideo.com/video/Zinga68/AA6EA5A5C84C474D840794EF85B05708/gold-coast-fire.aspx

Hope you found it a amusing as i did

chook · « **Reply #37 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:35:35 PM »

Seen it before & yep found it funny because the possible consequences didn't happen. However I think we all know what coul have happened

I heard the drivers involved have been disciplined after that video came to the attention of their bosses.
Thats what Urgent duty driving training is all about - how not to get into a situation like that!
cheers

Pipster · « **Reply #38 on:** January 01, 2008, 07:55:13 PM »

Quote from: SA FIREFIGHTER on January 01, 2008, 12:11:45 PM

I agree you have special conditions under lights , be it 10 kph above the limit, but i was referring to Emergency vehicles under lights only driving 80+ kph in 50 kph zones... this is an accident around the corner as chook put it..
Doesn't the passenger have any say in what the driver of an emergency vehicle is doing???

I'm a little bit lost with your posts...in the original one, you mention driving with lights & sirens is no different.....now you talk about lights only....

Under the Australian Road Rules, AND under CFS SOP's (and I am guessing other services as well) driving with lights only (no siren) IS emergency driving - regardless of the speed you are travelling...

BUT, CFS SOP's only allow vehicles travelling under emergency conditions to travel a certain amount over the speed limit - for a CFS appliance, that speed is only 20 km/hr over the posted speed limit...so 80 km/hr in a 50 zone is straight away breaching CFS SOP's......

If you have a driver who frightens the c*%p out of the OIC, or passengers on the way to a call, I'd be telling them to either slow down, or stop & get out, depending upon the circumstances.....

In an ideal world, drivers should be trained & tested well before becoming emergency drivers...so this type of scenario outlined above doesn't occur

Pip

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #39 on:** January 02, 2008, 03:37:55 PM »

Sorry pip but was thinking one answer and writing something else..

I'm a bit mixed up with the lingo used too
- Driving P1 P2
- Urgent duty driving
- Talking about SOP's SES ,MFS, CFS ,SASAS ??

Was trying to Generalise the topic not get into politics of who can do what under their SOP's...

Was also trying to Generalise that Emergency driving should be no different than your normal driving, ( granted that other vehicles react different with lights /sirens on)
But I think 80+ kph in a 50 kph zone is not acceptable driving... would you not agree ??

REMEMBER WE ARE ALL HERE FOR THE SAME THING AND WE ARE HERE FOR THE COMMUNITEE

I JOINED THIS FORUM FOR JOINT IDEA'S ... NOT SOP's, Australian Road Rules, They sit on my shelves too

Pipster · « **Reply #40 on:** January 02, 2008, 04:37:00 PM »

So we are all confused!!

I suppose it is difficult to really talk about "Lights & Sirens" driving ideas, without different services SOP's, Australian Road rules etc coming into it (since so many rules exist at various levels, that govern Lights & sirens driving.)

If we put all those things aside for a moment, I'd still disagree with you that generally speaking emergency driving should be no different to normal driving !

We may all be here for the community, but that doesn't mean that we all have to agree with each other, or that we automatically understand what people meant to say in their postings (vs what they typed)

Good healthy discussion is an excellent thing - but the dilemma with email / web based forums, is we don't have the ability to read people's expressions / body language, and don't have the immediacy of being able to clarify a comment at the time it is made......

Pip

chook · « **Reply #41 on:** January 02, 2008, 04:58:27 PM »

80 in a 50 zone? In what context? What vehicle type? What traffic conditions? Time of day etc etc. In a heavy truck, not a bright idea for all except immediate life threat, depending on the above.
Having said that - RCR persons trapped on the hwy (possible high speed impact), 10 ks out of town, late at night nil traffic; 70kmh in a 50 zone I would consider reasonable. Same incident at between 7 - 9 am or 3 - 5 pm I would do 60kmh due to the increased risk to the public - that is of course is in the primary rescue truck

(the quick response is better at speed!)
I know that you know what the written stuff says, however I'm not sure what you are after cause it is the laws, SOP,s training & experience that dictate how drivers drive.
There are always some cowboys & having sat in the passenger seat with some one who's livelyhood involves lots of urgent duty driving on daily basis

one persons perception of risky is different to anothers (I would never tell him how to drive

)
So in short I can't really answer your question & I would still agree with Pip it IS different.
Cheers

SA FIREFIGHTER · « **Reply #42 on:** January 02, 2008, 05:08:16 PM »

Very well said Pip
We will always agree to disagree as opinions are all seen different and a good healthy discussion is an excellent thing

Darius · « **Reply #43 on:** January 02, 2008, 06:33:58 PM »

Quote from: pipster on January 01, 2008, 07:55:13 PM

BUT, CFS SOP's only allow vehicles travelling under emergency conditions to travel a certain amount over the speed limit - for a CFS appliance, that speed is only 20 km/hr over the posted speed limit...so 80 km/hr in a 50 zone is straight away breaching CFS SOP's......

unless the SOP has just recently been changed, not quite correct as the exception to the above is if the vehicle is less than 3.5t and fitted with ABS the maximum you can do according to the SOP is 40km/hr over the limit. So this applies to most/all vaguely recent-model command cars.

but as with all forms of driving a safe speed is very dependent on circumstances, road conditions, traffic, time of day, weather and no doubt more. Eg. 70km/hr is technically ok P1 down eg. The Parade Norwood or the main street of Hahndorf (both 50 zones) but unless it's dry and the dead of night almost certainly an unsafe speed.

Zippy · « **Reply #44 on:** January 02, 2008, 09:49:38 PM »

during a recent appliance training package delivery for 34P, a theory refresher of the Aus Road rules and CFS SOP for emergency driving occurred. A point id like to note is:

CFS
P1 is Lights AND sirens. Must have Siren on. (Even at the dead of night unfortunately).
P2 is Lights (for scene safety) or nothing.

SA Firey · « **Reply #45 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:02:07 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on January 02, 2008, 09:49:38 PM

during a recent appliance training package delivery for 34P, a theory refresher of the Aus Road rules and CFS SOP for emergency driving occurred. A point id like to note is:

CFS
P1 is Lights AND sirens. Must have Siren on. (Even at the dead of night unfortunately).
P2 is Lights (for scene safety) or nothing.

Negative,read COSO 8 ARR306 (b) can run under lights only, we have been doing for about 3 years now and our wheelie bin callouts have dropped to almsot zero... we have taken the fun away by not waking up the nieghbourhood at 4:00 o'clock in the morning with the siren...no traffic no siren simple

Pipster · « **Reply #46 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:02:43 PM »

Sorry Zippy...you were definitely given the wrong info there.

COSO8, Emergency Response Driving, States that under Priority one driving, you can be displaying red & blue lights OR sounding an alarm

You can choose to use lights and / or sirens.

I'd suggest that in some cases, at 3 am in the morning, the being the only vehicle on the road, having only your flashing lights on may be appropriate.

Pip

Zippy · « **Reply #47 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:04:52 PM »

hmmm interesting...ill go bak through my info sources

SA Firey · « **Reply #48 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:09:18 PM »

Zippy by the sounds of it someone has still got a copy of the old COSO's written by Stuart Ellis which was lights and sirens must be used at all times pre ARR306

Zippy · « **Reply #49 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:15:18 PM »

ive read COSO 8 again...and what i find interesting is that it only refers to what a member of public (i.e car driver) must do at the sight of blue or red flashing lights or sirens. Havent found any references as to what CFS drivers must do, Yet.

This is from Oct 2006, from a website, which i already know is out of date in sections.