SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Fire Fighter Training => Topic started by: aust_fire1 on December 10, 2006, 01:22:00 PM
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Recently I organized a Presentation Night with SAPOL.
I asked SAPOL to talk about Priority Driving/Emergency Driving & Traffic Marshalling.
They sent an Officer from Traffic Management down to us and I also invited a local Officer from Victor Harbor to attend.
I organized it as a brigade training event. It was very successful with other brigades being interested in attending if I organized another session
30 attended the 1st session.
A 2nd night was set up at Port Elliot with another 75 members attending representing 3 Groups and 11 brigades.
The Traffic Marshaling section was a certified course with all members passing. SAPOL organise for certificates to be issued.
People dealing with traffic control (events, parades, accidents etc) should look at this presentation.
The cost for the presentation was $0.00
If you want more info just message me and i can give you contacts etc
It really is a good night. The night went for approx 90 minutes.
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we received some training, in our group a couple of years back from SAPOL...
gave us an accreditation in "traffic marshalling".... apparently to 'officially' conduct traffic control this is required.
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Our Brigade did the same thing. We also had other community organisations who regularly do traffic control join in. Now everyone is singing off the same page. Still haven't seen the certs from SAPOL yet :x
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Our Brigade did the same thing. We also had other community organisations who regularly do traffic control join in. Now everyone is singing off the same page. Still haven't seen the certs from SAPOL yet :x
SAPOL were meant to send us certs for a clan lab recognition workshop, I think it takes them a while with certificates... That was in August and we're still waiting!
[Edit: Cause me type good]
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Our course was run about 2 years ago......have given up on the certs.
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mmmmm - good idea for SAPOL to train us volunteers in traffic control, means they can negate their obligation and legislative responsability to do it?????
On the other hand - emergency driving ...... about time CFS removed it's digits from the dark places and reacted to this one - after all every time we roll we undertake emergency driving ..... and as yet, are we trained ..... sadly for some of our people over the years, no and it has showed - poor form by CFS managment - they train and train and train us in what to do when we arrive, they just cant get their acts together to train us how to get their safetly!!
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Thats my biggest beef Oz. No good training to do if we cant get there safely.
I am hoping that CFS will do what SAPOL do and do a emergency responce driving presentations course. Police do it yearly.
Even if it is a couple or so from each brigade is a start
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mmmmm - good idea for SAPOL to train us volunteers in traffic control, means they can negate their obligation and legislative responsability to do it??
Unfortunately in some rural areas there is only one copper on deck at any one time and doesn't start till 1500. It takes a while for their comcen to organise a recall, hence the need for us to work with them to keep us all safe.
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Traffic Services came to our station about 3 years ago we had a lecture and filled out a form to say we attended and were listed at SAPOL as authorised persons,but have never seen any certificates :-o
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I will be speaking to SAPOL Traffic next Thursday 14th Dec, If u want me to follow up about your brigades certificates etc email me the brigade name and I will see whats going on for you.
[email protected]
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Traffic control is not our job,I am sorry but its about time the police or SA ROADS did it and that way people may slow down for them... Also you need to do a full two day course in traffic control and you need to have the cert to say that you can do the job...Tell me what would happen if you did traffice control the IC tell you to send all traffic down a side road and from your actions there is another accident..Whos in the wrong??? and yes this did happen to a brigade some where in this state
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i dont see how the CFS would be at fault bill unless they did something strange like send cars over an unfinished bridge...
what happens if i crash my car while taking a road works detour? can i blame the council....?
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well from what i have been told yes the council is accountable!
Stupid as it seems.
Maybe Pip can enlighten us.
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I have done the full 2 day course and am full trained in traffic control and traffic control devices.
SAPOL are teaching you about Traffic Marshalling.One day you will be at an incident which police may not be able to attend to. Then you may be placed into a situation that requires traffic marshaling.
You will find that a large number of SES are trained in Traffic Marshaling, but again, the SES are not always going to be there either.
I prefer that my members be offered the chance to learn the basics in marshaling than to know nothing at all.
Hey, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.
Its something that we did here, it looks like other brigades have done marshaling as well. We found it very interesting.
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Drivers are too busy looking at the flashing lights to worry about our hand signals telling them where they should go :-P
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The other part of driver training that will eventually come under question is driving off road through paddocks eg. running grass fire, and the like where it is common and legal for people to be standing on the back of the truck. one day someone will get injured in a rollover and as CFS doesn't train for this type of driving. there will be issues.
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We have been standing on appliances for years and years. Yes, one day something bad will happen, then all hell will break free. The landcruiser 14's are a good option. 2 people and a running fire could be fought from the front cab for added safety. At least the passenger could have a seatbelt on.
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The other part of driver training that will eventually come under question is driving off road through paddocks eg. running grass fire, and the like where it is common and legal for people to be standing on the back of the truck. one day someone will get injured in a rollover and as CFS doesn't train for this type of driving. there will be issues.
Mt Bryan 24 Rollover ring a bell :wink:
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Those who suffered minor injuries were, I believe, the ones on the back. A person in the cab was the most seriously injured.
And the roll over involving Murray Bridge Pumper, again, the most seriously injured person was the driver.....
But having said that, I think we are lucky that we haven't had more crashes....
Pip
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We perform duties that include a certain amount of risk. And that risk will always be there.
Unless they are going to start wrapping us up in bubble wrap these things will always happen. Its part of the job unfortunately but we just have to try our best to stop it happening.
Heck look at the yanks, they write trucks off several times a year - we do it maybe once every 5 years (on average, maybe more?)
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Those who suffered minor injuries were, I believe, the ones on the back. A person in the cab was the most seriously injured.
And the roll over involving Murray Bridge Pumper, again, the most seriously injured person was the driver.....
But having said that, I think we are lucky that we haven't had more crashes....
Pip
<Agrees>
I reiterate the fact about responsibilities of persons driving appliances,and it is always the "APPLIANCE DRIVER" who will get crucified by the coroner, not the officer in charge.
Driver has responsibilty for all controls of the vehicle!
Our driver training instructors at TTC now have the copies of my DVD's ex CFA,which will be shown in future driving courses.
Have a safe and Merry Christmas everyone :-D
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Just wanted to let you all know that we have received our certificate for traffic marshalling. Only 7 weeks after we did the course. You guys had me worried that they would not come thru.
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has anyone got any contact details for this SAPOL course?
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Did the traffic marshalling course a couple of years ago. Took almost a day, if done properly the risks are reduced, so someone sending traffic into on comming traffic shouldn't happen (see Murphy's Law :-D).
The other course is work zone traffic management, went to a lecture conducted by one of the top guys in that section of Transport SA (he conducts audits of contractors doing this work).I asked the question do we need to do this? short answer "Don't you have big trucks with red & blue lights? Yes "then throw it across the road - you don't need to do this stuff".
So boys & girls throw away the stop & slow bats, learn to stand on the white line in the middle of the road & learn to be insertive. By the way we are not permitted to put in detours regardless of what course you have done!
Council or SAPOL thats it, we can however enforce detours once in place.
Interestingly military emergency response personnel do emergency driving course, used to be at Pucka - not sure where it is now.
cheers
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Emergency driving should be no different than your normal driving,Just because you have your beacons and sirens on doesn't make you any different than driving back to the station after the call.. you are pumped full of adrenalin and you think everyones going slower,getting in your way... Think about when the job is done and you are returning to the station (you remember all road rule ) why should it be any different...
At the scene you should always park in a defensive position anyway to protect you and your crew........
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Seriously? You always driver a truck like that? Sorry that is BS! Driving P1 or 2 may be the same in the City (I doubt it) but driving a 12 tonne truck @ 130 is not the same as normal driving!
And motorist act differently when they see the lights or hear the siren & its not predictable what they will do.
Add adrenaline, middle of the night & apprehension/fear into the mix and disaster is just around the corner.
And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, hold a federal advanced driving certificate & over 25 years in heavy vehicles including some very specialised ones.
ALL emergency service drivers should have specialist training it is unfortunate that our collective services choose not to provide it.
cheers
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Emergency Driving is so different to normal driving - be it in the City or in Country areas.
I have driven under emergency conditions in Fire, Ambulance and Police vehicles, have undertaken emergency driving courses in both Police & Ambulance services, and it is nothing like driving under normal conditions.
As Chook points out, traffic behaves very differently in front of lights & sirens. As a driver (and as passenger) you have to be even more alert than under normal conditions, and be very prepared for other drivers doing stupid things in front of you...
And if emergency driving was the same as normal driving, why do all services have specific SOP's relating to it, and legislators given emergency services special powers on the road?
Because emergency driving is different, I ensure the drivers within my brigade are selected very carefully, and work through a graduated program, to ensure they are suitable for normal driving, and for emergencies. Some who are suitable for normal conditions are not suitable for emergency driving.....
Pip
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Thanks Pip
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Seriously? You always driver a truck like that? Sorry that is BS! Driving P1 or 2 may be the same in the City (I doubt it) but driving a 12 tonne truck @ 130 is not the same as normal driving!
And motorist act differently when they see the lights or hear the siren & its not predictable what they will do.
Add adrenaline, middle of the night & apprehension/fear into the mix and disaster is just around the corner.
And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, hold a federal advanced driving certificate & over 25 years in heavy vehicles including some very specialised ones.
ALL emergency service drivers should have specialist training it is unfortunate that our collective services choose not to provide it.
cheers
i think you missinterpreted his post entirely mate.
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I agree you have special conditions under lights , be it 10 kph above the limit, but i was referring to Emergency vehicles under lights only driving 80+ kph in 50 kph zones... this is an accident around the corner as chook put it..
Doesn't the passenger have any say in what the driver of an emergency vehicle is doing???
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maybe if they outrank the driver...
id be voicing my concerns anyway, and have done so in the past.
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Even if they don't outrank the driver, under OHS you would be well within your rights to tell the driver to pull over so you can get out as you didn't feel safe..
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Thank you Rescue Hazmat
At least some agree that you shouldn't drive a 5 tonne plus vehicle, be it an Emergency vehicle at excessive speed, Regardless if you have been woken at 2am, second call for night,let some one else drive.You may as well be driving while intoxicated. Drive like that under code green .. YOU WOULD LOOSE YOUR LICENCE !!
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No don't think I misinterpreted any thing, emergency response driving is emergency response driving. Whether L/S or just lights, if you have them on you are Urgent duty driving. You have exemptions under the road traffic act, SOP's control what you can and can't do e.g we have a 20 kph over the posted seed limit rule. Changing drivers may be an option for the full time service, not practical for the vollies as everyone is in the same boat. The OIC of the vehicle can ask a driver to slow down & yes a passanger can ask to be let out.
Driving code green was not mentioned in the original post, mind you as officer in charge of 3 vehicles I would kick anyone in the a*** if they were returning home driving like they were driving to a response!
As said previously Urgent duty driving is different/potentially dangerous and the OIC has to be damn sure that the level of driving is consistant with the level required.
cheers
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Chooks Quote
"mind you as officer in charge of 3 vehicles I would kick anyone in the a*** if they were returning home driving like they were driving to a response!"
How can you be officer in charge of 3 vehicles ????
You could only be in charge of one of those vehicles ???
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quite correct - except when you are the Unit Manager, Brigade Captain, Station Officer who is ultimately responsible for the actions of all of the people under their control :wink:
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So this is the kind of Emergency Driving we are talking about ???
http://www.livevideo.com/video/Zinga68/AA6EA5A5C84C474D840794EF85B05708/gold-coast-fire.aspx
Hope you found it a amusing as i did
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Seen it before & yep found it funny because the possible consequences didn't happen. However I think we all know what coul have happened :-(
I heard the drivers involved have been disciplined after that video came to the attention of their bosses.
Thats what Urgent duty driving training is all about - how not to get into a situation like that!
cheers
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I agree you have special conditions under lights , be it 10 kph above the limit, but i was referring to Emergency vehicles under lights only driving 80+ kph in 50 kph zones... this is an accident around the corner as chook put it..
Doesn't the passenger have any say in what the driver of an emergency vehicle is doing???
I'm a little bit lost with your posts...in the original one, you mention driving with lights & sirens is no different.....now you talk about lights only.... :|
Under the Australian Road Rules, AND under CFS SOP's (and I am guessing other services as well) driving with lights only (no siren) IS emergency driving - regardless of the speed you are travelling...
BUT, CFS SOP's only allow vehicles travelling under emergency conditions to travel a certain amount over the speed limit - for a CFS appliance, that speed is only 20 km/hr over the posted speed limit...so 80 km/hr in a 50 zone is straight away breaching CFS SOP's......
If you have a driver who frightens the c*%p out of the OIC, or passengers on the way to a call, I'd be telling them to either slow down, or stop & get out, depending upon the circumstances.....
In an ideal world, drivers should be trained & tested well before becoming emergency drivers...so this type of scenario outlined above doesn't occur
Pip
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Sorry pip but was thinking one answer and writing something else..
I'm a bit mixed up with the lingo used too
- Driving P1 P2
- Urgent duty driving
- Talking about SOP's SES ,MFS, CFS ,SASAS ??
Was trying to Generalise the topic not get into politics of who can do what under their SOP's...
Was also trying to Generalise that Emergency driving should be no different than your normal driving, ( granted that other vehicles react different with lights /sirens on)
But I think 80+ kph in a 50 kph zone is not acceptable driving... would you not agree ??
REMEMBER WE ARE ALL HERE FOR THE SAME THING AND WE ARE HERE FOR THE COMMUNITEE
I JOINED THIS FORUM FOR JOINT IDEA'S ... NOT SOP's, Australian Road Rules, They sit on my shelves too
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So we are all confused!! :-D :lol:
I suppose it is difficult to really talk about "Lights & Sirens" driving ideas, without different services SOP's, Australian Road rules etc coming into it (since so many rules exist at various levels, that govern Lights & sirens driving.)
If we put all those things aside for a moment, I'd still disagree with you that generally speaking emergency driving should be no different to normal driving !
We may all be here for the community, but that doesn't mean that we all have to agree with each other, or that we automatically understand what people meant to say in their postings (vs what they typed)
Good healthy discussion is an excellent thing - but the dilemma with email / web based forums, is we don't have the ability to read people's expressions / body language, and don't have the immediacy of being able to clarify a comment at the time it is made......
Pip
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80 in a 50 zone? In what context? What vehicle type? What traffic conditions? Time of day etc etc. In a heavy truck, not a bright idea for all except immediate life threat, depending on the above.
Having said that - RCR persons trapped on the hwy (possible high speed impact), 10 ks out of town, late at night nil traffic; 70kmh in a 50 zone I would consider reasonable. Same incident at between 7 - 9 am or 3 - 5 pm I would do 60kmh due to the increased risk to the public - that is of course is in the primary rescue truck :wink: (the quick response is better at speed!)
I know that you know what the written stuff says, however I'm not sure what you are after cause it is the laws, SOP,s training & experience that dictate how drivers drive.
There are always some cowboys & having sat in the passenger seat with some one who's livelyhood involves lots of urgent duty driving on daily basis :wink: one persons perception of risky is different to anothers (I would never tell him how to drive :-D)
So in short I can't really answer your question & I would still agree with Pip it IS different.
Cheers
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Very well said Pip
We will always agree to disagree as opinions are all seen different and a good healthy discussion is an excellent thing
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BUT, CFS SOP's only allow vehicles travelling under emergency conditions to travel a certain amount over the speed limit - for a CFS appliance, that speed is only 20 km/hr over the posted speed limit...so 80 km/hr in a 50 zone is straight away breaching CFS SOP's......
unless the SOP has just recently been changed, not quite correct as the exception to the above is if the vehicle is less than 3.5t and fitted with ABS the maximum you can do according to the SOP is 40km/hr over the limit. So this applies to most/all vaguely recent-model command cars.
but as with all forms of driving a safe speed is very dependent on circumstances, road conditions, traffic, time of day, weather and no doubt more. Eg. 70km/hr is technically ok P1 down eg. The Parade Norwood or the main street of Hahndorf (both 50 zones) but unless it's dry and the dead of night almost certainly an unsafe speed.
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during a recent appliance training package delivery for 34P, a theory refresher of the Aus Road rules and CFS SOP for emergency driving occurred. A point id like to note is:
CFS
P1 is Lights AND sirens. Must have Siren on. (Even at the dead of night unfortunately).
P2 is Lights (for scene safety) or nothing.
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during a recent appliance training package delivery for 34P, a theory refresher of the Aus Road rules and CFS SOP for emergency driving occurred. A point id like to note is:
CFS
P1 is Lights AND sirens. Must have Siren on. (Even at the dead of night unfortunately).
P2 is Lights (for scene safety) or nothing.
Negative,read COSO 8 ARR306 (b) can run under lights only, we have been doing for about 3 years now and our wheelie bin callouts have dropped to almsot zero... we have taken the fun away by not waking up the nieghbourhood at 4:00 o'clock in the morning with the siren...no traffic no siren simple :wink:
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Sorry Zippy...you were definitely given the wrong info there.
COSO8, Emergency Response Driving, States that under Priority one driving, you can be displaying red & blue lights OR sounding an alarm
You can choose to use lights and / or sirens.
I'd suggest that in some cases, at 3 am in the morning, the being the only vehicle on the road, having only your flashing lights on may be appropriate.
Pip
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hmmm interesting...ill go bak through my info sources ;)
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Zippy by the sounds of it someone has still got a copy of the old COSO's written by Stuart Ellis which was lights and sirens must be used at all times pre ARR306 :wink:
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ive read COSO 8 again...and what i find interesting is that it only refers to what a member of public (i.e car driver) must do at the sight of blue or red flashing lights or sirens. Havent found any references as to what CFS drivers must do, Yet.
This is from Oct 2006, from a website, which i already know is out of date in sections.
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The Appliance training package was from the Transport Training Centre package developed with CFS. Given in November 2007.
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Direct from ARR306
306—Exemption for drivers of emergency vehicles
A provision of the Australian Road Rules does not apply to the driver of an emergency vehicle if:
(a) in the circumstances:
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care; and
(ii) it is reasonable that the rule should not apply; and
(b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle that is moving—the vehicle is displaying a blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.
ARR78
78—Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles
(1) A driver must not move into the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm.
Offence provision.
Note—
Approaching, emergency vehicle and police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.
(2) If a driver is in the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm, the driver must move out of the path of the vehicle as soon as the driver can do so safely.
Offence provision.
(3) This rule applies to the driver despite any other rule of the Australian Road Rules.
79—Giving way to police and emergency vehicles
(1) A driver must give way to a police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm.
Offence provision.
Note 1—
Emergency vehicle and police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.
Note 2—
For this rule, give way means:
(a) if the driver is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed; or
(b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision,
—see the definition in the dictionary.
(2) This rule applies to the driver despite any other rule that would otherwise require the driver of a police or emergency vehicle to give way to the driver.
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ive read COSO 8 again...and what i find interesting is that it only refers to what a member of public (i.e car driver) must do at the sight of blue or red flashing lights or sirens. Havent found any references as to what CFS drivers must do, Yet.
This is from Oct 2006, from a website, which i already know is out of date in sections.
Read COSO 8 Priority One Driving.
The only time lights and sirens MUST be used is when approaching intersections with a stop sign or traffic signals.
TTC cannot override the ARR's stick with the COSO's :roll:
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....TTC cannot override the ARR's stick with the COSO's :roll:
I loooooove the use of acronyms (not)....please explain in laymans language :-o
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COSO's from October 2006 are out of date...the lastest COSO is October 2007.
Each brigade should have been sent a new updated copy, along with new "Operations Management Guidelines" dated Sept 2007
COSO 8, Emergency Response Driving, details circumstances when priority one driving should be used, procedures for approaching Stop signs & traffic signals, railway / tramways crossing, safety & speed limits, school crossing & Road works.
It also details when flashing lights should be used (which includes when driving Priority one)
There is also a mention of use of red & blue flashing lights on private vehicles (not allowed) and a mention of Priority Two driving.
There is also COSO 7, which details driving CFS vehicles (not emergency driving) and talks about wearing seatbelts, training, licensing, vehicle logs, purchase of fuel, reversing, use of mobile phones and towing.
I'd suggest that anyone who drives a CFS appliance, and any one who is likely to be an OIC of an appliance should be familiar with both of these COSO's
Pip
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....TTC cannot override the ARR's stick with the COSO's :roll:
I loooooove the use of acronyms (not)....please explain in laymans language :-o
Here you go bajdas :-D
TTC - Transport Training Centre
ARR - Australian Road Rules
COSO - Chief Officer's Standing Orders
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Read COSO 8 Priority One Driving.
The only time lights and sirens MUST be used is when approaching intersections with a stop sign or traffic signals.
TTC cannot override the ARR's stick with the COSO's :roll:
I would imagine if you are breaching the road laws to comply with emergency response driving conditions you would also have to operate ligths and or sirens?.. Not *just* when approaching intersections..
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Not under the ARR...but under the COSO is states that when approaching traffic signals and stop signs, on Priority one, you will have both visual & audible warning devices operating.....
Pip
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i should read all post be for adding to them