SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: rescue5271 on September 15, 2007, 08:28:51 AM
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With the new appliances being built this year there has been some talk that all new appliance that come out will only have storz and wajax fittings so as to bring us in line with other state's. I would hope that CFS will also ensure that where these appliances go that brigade's with in that group will also be given adoptors so as we can work with these new appliances when they do come into any area.
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As I understand it, it is not just talk, but it will be occurring - just as it is meant to right across Australia.....as for adapters...presumably a set will come included with the new appliance...
Pip
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Quite obviously SAFB fittin cant be replaced entirely in such a short time, since theres a **lot** of fixed hydrants around the state having those fittings...not to mention the number of booster systems!
probably start seeing Storz 64mm to maybe work with Storz Standpipes :-D
Our 14's got a blend of SAFB,Wajax,Storz hehe...Wajax works with the hosereel, Storz for the 25mm Layflat (with adaptors and gated Y), SAFB for Water intake and 38mm. All works :-).
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You have Stortz for your 25mm? Is this a brigade based trial or a group wide thing?
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brigade "lil bit more than a trial"...not sure about other brigades in group. works well..and recently lubricated the fittings..no effort to put em together now :-D
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I'm intrigued... You'd have to run with a heap of Wajax -> Stortz adaptors. That'd be a pain in the arse. No to mention SAFB -> Stortz when you reduce off a 38.
Talk about a headache! Why no Stortz for your hosereel?
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Dezza that means you will end up with 64mm Storz 38mm wajax 25mm stotz and 25mm wajax. Now the wajax on the sidelines will fit the 38 as all wajax are the same as is understand it but you can't run 38s off a sideline??? :?
you making it harder than it needs to be
What was wrong with SAFB then 38 & 64 could fit nicely together???
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64mm single outlet
SAFB-64>Storz-25...then a Gated Y to make it two 25mm outlets. Remembering 14's pump is designed for high pressure not high volume. 14 doesnt really get the chance to use 38mm wajax as we use other appliances for higher volume.
Hosereel
We have 25mm Wajax to the Hosereel when needed, as that came with the appliance :wink:
slightly complicated yes, headache no :-)
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With the new appliances being built this year there has been some talk that all new appliance that come out will only have storz and wajax fittings so as to bring us in line with other state's. I would hope that CFS will also ensure that where these appliances go that brigade's with in that group will also be given adoptors so as we can work with these new appliances when they do come into any area.
That'll make the souvenir cap run to NSW a bit easier. :-)
Will still have to borrow their standpipes though. (And chainsaws &
generators & anything else that can be laid hands on when no-one is
looking...)
Doubt if CFS will see a need to issue adaptors. More likely it will be
"suggested" to the Group that they go & buy whatever they think that
they might need. We are surrounded by brigades that use BSP, Wajax, &
Barway, depending upon Group & age of individual hoses. Our main
appliance is mostly Storz.
We carry a *lot* of adaptors... :-D
"The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from." (some famous computer person)
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The document with the coupling changes has been around for about 12 months.
It indicated what you have been discussing.
Storz 64mm .
Wajax 38mm and under.
The document indicated that new appliances will be fitted with the new couplings and neigbouring brigades would also been given an adaptor.
I do not know how they will give out adaptor couplings but I really don't care. Cos if you are on a inter state deployment you could use an appliance with a different coupling therefore you need adaptor, so this really means that an adaptor should be at every brigade. :?
The roll out of changing the adaptors were to be completed by 2020 :?
But!!, I am not sure how they can roll out the changes when it has not yet gone to STC for R&D, FGP's, Risk Assessment etc. I know at this stage their is none of this equipment at STC.
But most people would know a brigade who is already using STORZ or WAJAX on some of their hoses anyway. :roll:
I would be surprised to see it on any new appliances this financial year due to the above issues.
I do agree it is a good move, but I think that the roll out should be done in one hit but this is a costly exercise and how many brigades have more hose than the required Standard Stowage in their appliance or in their station, I do not think their would be many on the exact number. So you can see how much of a headache it would be.
:-)
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It would be a long slow process.
NSW achieved it with far more of everything to change than us.
Took them several years, but even in Dec '01, everything I saw
there was Storz - every stand-pipe (except the ones they keep
for us), every appliance, every hydrant.
As for the decision to go Storz / Wajax - I got half an idea
that this was agreed policy through AFAC at least 5 - 10 years
ago. It's just that, like the national property numbering
scheme, SA Government hasn't budgeted to implement it.
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so if they haven't budgeted for it yet it would make sense that it is happening over time with each truck the is produced. as the cost of SAFB conections would be similar to Stortz i assume
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cant wait for the day that we dont have to think about male/female ends, let alone tighten the fittings! :-D
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What has prompted the standardisation? Is there any legislation or is it merely a recommendation?
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After many years of discussion, a decision to standardise the fittings has finally been made through AFAC (with much pushing from CFS) ...so this is meant to be a Nationwide thing..... with an expected 20 year change over plan...
Pip
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but apparently Northern Territory havent signed off on it just yet.
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Why give adapters to neighbouring brigades when you could simply put adapters on the trucks with hermaphrodite couplings, and any brigade they work with can use them?
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I don't quite understand why people still want to use multiple standards, like Stortz/Wajax/Foestry. You may as well make it all Stortz. Easy, simple and it all works...
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I don't quite understand why people still want to use multiple standards, like Stortz/Wajax/Foestry. You may as well make it all Stortz. Easy, simple and it all works...
I quite agree. :)
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cant wait for the day that we dont have to think about male/female ends, let alone tighten the fittings! :-D
Oh boy! Are you in for a nasty surprise then Dezza.
Large Storz are mongrels to couple/uncouple.
There's no sideways play in the fittings like with SAFB
so you have to -perfectly- align the full length of two
bits of suction. Near enough ain't good enough.
Also, unless the seal faces are lubricated, the friction
between the seal faces makes them hard to turn for the full
150deg rotation, not just the first little bit. The keys
are far more likely to slip off the silly little lugs if
you lean hard on them. And you -will need keys- !
Folding handles are quite common on 100mm & larger sizes,
but they sometimes aren't long enough.
You can lubricate the seal faces to make them easier to
turn, but then they attract every bit of gravel & rubbish
in a 10M radius. Then, not only do they not turn easily,
they don't seal properly either.
Gimme SAFB any day !!
cheers
AJ
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cant wait for the day that we dont have to think about male/female ends, let alone tighten the fittings! :-D
Oh boy! Are you in for a nasty surprise then Dezza.
Large Storz are mongrels to couple/uncouple.
There's no sideways play in the fittings like with SAFB
so you have to -perfectly- align the full length of two
bits of suction. Near enough ain't good enough.
Also, unless the seal faces are lubricated, the friction
between the seal faces makes them hard to turn for the full
150deg rotation, not just the first little bit. The keys
are far more likely to slip off the silly little lugs if
you lean hard on them. And you -will need keys- !
Folding handles are quite common on 100mm & larger sizes,
but they sometimes aren't long enough.
You can lubricate the seal faces to make them easier to
turn, but then they attract every bit of gravel & rubbish
in a 10M radius. Then, not only do they not turn easily,
they don't seal properly either.
Gimme SAFB any day !!
cheers
AJ
I think you meant to post in the humour section champ.
Lets try using the coupling you are talking about, THEN posting. The worst thing about stortz is waiting around at the door to a burning house to get water in the line, because the thing has gone together so fast.
I've never had an issue with suction hose either, we are talking 150mm lengths here...
God forbid you occasionally use a stortz spanner.
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Also, unless the seal faces are lubricated, the friction
between the seal faces makes them hard to turn for the full
150deg rotation, not just the first little bit.
I do agree with you on this stopcallking. (sidenote: who takes the most stop calls in the CFS??)
We have been doing this practise recently and has helped dramatically. 3 months should be a good lasting period for the lubrication.
We do clean our hoses after being used. (in regards to random grit getting on the seals). Layflat is filtered for getting dirty, wet then dried hehe.
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Should have gone BIC now that's a fast coupling.
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and for viewers at home :mrgreen:
(http://www.firelogistics.com.au/bic.jpg)
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Also, unless the seal faces are lubricated, the friction
between the seal faces makes them hard to turn for the full
150deg rotation, not just the first little bit.
I do agree with you on this stopcallking. (sidenote: who takes the most stop calls in the CFS??)
We have been doing this practise recently and has helped dramatically. 3 months should be a good lasting period for the lubrication.
We do clean our hoses after being used. (in regards to random grit getting on the seals). Layflat is filtered for getting dirty, wet then dried hehe.
I've never lubricated a stortz coupling, and at the same time, never had an issue with connecting anything apart fromm 150mm suction, which will almost always need spanners.
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BIC are bulky and they tend to need replacing alot as the interlock breaks or just stops working at all and they would not last here in SA due to heavy water and the corrosion factor...
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Sorry but that is speculation. Aviation fire services use them in SA.
They need a little bit of care but that's it, like anything if you care for it it works as intended.
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Well after having used BIC couplings for years and thinking how careful you had to be with them and how much maintenance was required compared to the London Round couplings... Now after being in WA for 3 months and using BIC on a mine site. Treat them like crap and they still work fine. The water we use for fire fighting is 9 times saltier than sea water, the clean up water is marginally less than sea water and the couplings are fine. All they get is a squirt of CRC or similar after use. And we don't have a lot of bitumen out here either, so they stand up well in a fairly aggresive environment.
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Sorry but that is speculation. Aviation fire services use them in SA.
They need a little bit of care but that's it, like anything if you care for it it works as intended.
I agree. I have spoken to a number of people who use them out in the real world and they don't have any issues at all !
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I think you meant to post in the humour section champ.
Lets try using the coupling you are talking about, THEN posting. The worst thing about stortz is waiting around at the door to a burning house to get water in the line, because the thing has gone together so fast.
I've never had an issue with suction hose either, we are talking 150mm lengths here...
God forbid you occasionally use a stortz spanner.
Brrrrr... wrong ! We have got & use Storz.
Our 34 has 120mm, 65mm, & 38mm Storz on it.
Might even be a couple of 25mm still tucked away in some dark recess.
We have to use adaptors for everything except the HP lines.
Our trailer pump is 120mm Storz. As is the portable on 34 (it looks
silly but at least it matches the truck).
Have also played with the RFS on the odd occasion (100% Storz)
So much for not using it hey ?
So my experience is:
Storz on soft hoses are ok in the small sizes. No better or worse than
Wajax, quicker & easier than than BSP or Barway, a distant trailer
behind Minsup (now *that* is a magic coupling for small hoses).
But CFS isn't going Storz on small hoses...
Storz on 64/65mm delivery can be a pain to lock home without keys.
Some couplings seem to go together easier than most, but I'm stuffed
if I can see a difference why that might be so.
It's hard suction that causes the most grief, the bigger it is, the
worser it is. At best, with practiced operators who understand the
alignment & cleanliness hassles, hooking up large suction is "tedious".
With newbies on the hose it is like watching crocodile wrestling.
And the u-beaut folding handles that look soooo clever have enough
leverage for the strongest 30% of members only. Time & again it'd
be quicker & less stressful to hook up 2 or 3 SAFB 64mm suction than
a single 120mm Storz.
Your experience is poles different to mine/ours. So you must be
tackling them differently. How do you treat, maintain & operate
them to work for you rather than against you ?
cheers
AJ
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youd be surpised if you found out your talking to someone who works with storz day in day out....lol
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Any coupling is only as good as the person using them!
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Gold
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Brrrrr... wrong ! We have got & use Storz.
Our 34 has 120mm, 65mm, & 38mm Storz on it.
Might even be a couple of 25mm still tucked away in some dark recess.
We have to use adaptors for everything except the HP lines.
Our trailer pump is 120mm Storz. As is the portable on 34 (it looks
silly but at least it matches the truck).
Have also played with the RFS on the odd occasion (100% Storz)
So much for not using it hey ?
So my experience is:
Storz on soft hoses are ok in the small sizes. No better or worse than
Wajax, quicker & easier than than BSP or Barway, a distant trailer
behind Minsup (now *that* is a magic coupling for small hoses).
But CFS isn't going Storz on small hoses...
Storz on 64/65mm delivery can be a pain to lock home without keys.
Some couplings seem to go together easier than most, but I'm stuffed
if I can see a difference why that might be so.
It's hard suction that causes the most grief, the bigger it is, the
worser it is. At best, with practiced operators who understand the
alignment & cleanliness hassles, hooking up large suction is "tedious".
With newbies on the hose it is like watching crocodile wrestling.
And the u-beaut folding handles that look soooo clever have enough
leverage for the strongest 30% of members only. Time & again it'd
be quicker & less stressful to hook up 2 or 3 SAFB 64mm suction than
a single 120mm Storz.
Your experience is poles different to mine/ours. So you must be
tackling them differently. How do you treat, maintain & operate
them to work for you rather than against you ?
cheers
AJ
What brigade are you from champ? The amount of non-standard hose stowage you have sounds really interesting.
I'm just surprised that you and I have had two very difering experiences using Stortz. Yeah 64mm and up can occasionally be a pain, but thats why you've got a hose spanner in you turnout gear... right? ;) Apart from that 38mm and 25mm go together easy as pie 99% of the time.
As for larger hard suction, yeah, it can be a bit of a shitfight sometimes, but no moreso than 64mm.
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What brigade are you from champ? The amount of non-standard hose stowage you have sounds really interesting.
I'm just surprised that you and I have had two very difering experiences using Stortz. Yeah 64mm and up can occasionally be a pain, but thats why you've got a hose spanner in you turnout gear... right? ;) Apart from that 38mm and 25mm go together easy as pie 99% of the time.
As for larger hard suction, yeah, it can be a bit of a shitfight sometimes, but no moreso than 64mm.
Hmmmm.... evidently I should clarify - the appliance inlets/outlets are Storz, & our hard suction is Storz. Our soft hose couplings are more-or-less standard 64mm SAFB & 25mm Barway.
So every time a delivery hose is connected, an adaptor goes on first - sometimes easily, sometimes not. (we carry a lot of adaptors!) These can rarely can be locked/unlocked without a key. Suction, never. You indicated earlier that it shouldn't be that difficult. I figure you are doing something different to us.
I still say SAFB is easier for suction - it is sufficient merely to present the hose coupling nearly right - a loose-ish female collar can be started & will pull the hose into alignment as it is tightened. Storz hasn't got the lateral play, so the whole hose has to be aligned by the operator before the coupling is aligned & can be started.
cheers
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Hmmmm.... evidently I should clarify - the appliance inlets/outlets are Storz, & our hard suction is Storz. Our soft hose couplings are more-or-less standard 64mm SAFB & 25mm Barway.
So every time a delivery hose is connected, an adaptor goes on first - sometimes easily, sometimes not. (we carry a lot of adaptors!) These can rarely can be locked/unlocked without a key. Suction, never. You indicated earlier that it shouldn't be that difficult. I figure you are doing something different to us.
I still say SAFB is easier for suction - it is sufficient merely to present the hose coupling nearly right - a loose-ish female collar can be started & will pull the hose into alignment as it is tightened. Storz hasn't got the lateral play, so the whole hose has to be aligned by the operator before the coupling is aligned & can be started.
cheers
If all your hose is SAFB, why not leave adapters on your pumps collectors and deliveries permanently? Mind you, if you're still using Barway for your 25mm I feel for you. For your HP line yeah, but all your 25mm? Jesus, get Stortz or Wajax. You're meant to have wajax anyhow aren't you?
The issue with suction you might find is that having an SAFB coupling for anything larger than 64mm is getting too big, too heavy and too hard to handle. The lateral play you talk about being great, is also the downfall of SAFB, couplings can work loose over time and especially after being shifted around. This is not so bad for delivery hoses, but kiss goodbye to any prime you achieved, and say hello to pump cavitation.
Isn't 64mm suction hose becoming a thing of the past? All your Booster Systems will be running with 100-150mm stortz suction outlets if they have them, and 100-150mm fills the first aid tank *much* faster than 64mm ever will.
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Mind you, if you're still using Barway for your 25mm I feel for you. For your HP line yeah, but all your 25mm? Jesus, get Stortz or Wajax. You're meant to have wajax anyhow aren't you?
yes and this is something I'd like to see a big crackdown on. As a service we are never going to get everyone to agree on what is "best". A fitting has been chosen (forestry/wajax in this case) so everyone needs to have it for interoperability with other appliances/crews. (adaptors are a poor workaround)
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If all your hose is SAFB, why not leave adapters on your pumps collectors and deliveries permanently?
The outlets are flush to the tray edges - leaving them on makes the vehicle overwidth & the fittings exposed to stray gate posts & etc.
Mind you, if you're still using Barway for your 25mm I feel for you. For your HP line yeah, but all your 25mm? Jesus, get Stortz or Wajax. You're meant to have wajax anyhow aren't you?
It has been mentioned just once or 10 times...
The issue with suction you might find is that having an SAFB coupling for anything larger than 64mm is getting too big, too heavy and too hard to handle. The lateral play you talk about being great, is also the downfall of SAFB, couplings can work loose over time and especially after being shifted around. This is not so bad for delivery hoses, but kiss goodbye to any prime you achieved, and say hello to pump cavitation.
never had this issue for this reason. Not saying it can't happen, just haven't had it happen.
Isn't 64mm suction hose becoming a thing of the past? All your Booster Systems will be running with 100-150mm stortz suction outlets if they have them, and 100-150mm fills the first aid tank *much* faster than 64mm ever will.
Agreed on speed. Cannot comment about 64mm suction lifecycle - seems to be a fair bit of it around. Might be only older appliances have it ?
Curious about the comment implying putting hard suction on a booster. Doesn't sound right to me...
Still need an answer for my immediate issue - what can we do to improve our "Storz Experience" ? Is there a lubricant that doesn't attact crud ? Is there something we can do to/for the seals to make them more user friendly ?
etc
cheers
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Curious about the comment implying putting hard suction on a booster. Doesn't sound right to me...
Some boosters are fed by tank supplies rather than, or in addition to, mains supplies. These boosters are designed to be draughted out of.
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CFS Firey has it in one.
Some areas, particualrly those with poor mains pressure, have large tank supply feeds, which are draughted from. -As said by CFS Firey. :)
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If all your hose is SAFB, why not leave adapters on your pumps collectors and deliveries permanently?
The outlets are flush to the tray edges - leaving them on makes the vehicle overwidth & the fittings exposed to stray gate posts & etc.
I didn't think that CFS 34's were built 2.5m wide?
Mind you, if you're still using Barway for your 25mm I feel for you. For your HP line yeah, but all your 25mm? Jesus, get Stortz or Wajax. You're meant to have wajax anyhow aren't you?
It has been mentioned just once or 10 times...
Whats been mentioned? I fail to see the need for your hundreds of adaptors, when with a little time spent here and there, you could never have to worry about adapting anything again!
Still need an answer for my immediate issue - what can we do to improve our "Storz Experience" ? Is there a lubricant that doesn't attact crud ? Is there something we can do to/for the seals to make them more user friendly ?
etc
Wish I could help you mate. It could be the type of seal, or they may not be used very often. As I've said before, I've never had your on going problem, with 99% of stortz going on nice and easy. They do take a bit of force, but usually nothing that *needs* the spanners.
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Very interesting Fire frog wonder why they have never considered BIC we use it at my work as well and it is amazingly quick. Only on 38mm hose not 64mm.
Did a course with N.S.W. fire fighters recently and we were using SAFB London round at a certain training centre and yes they wondered why we are still in the dark ages with hoses considering MFS and CFS are pretty much up the top with everything else!
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They (whoever they is) probably did consider it - I would suggest that BIC have a bad reputation, people that have never even held one will say with authority that they are no good.
Bizarre!!!!!!
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They (whoever they is) probably did consider it - I would suggest that BIC have a bad reputation, people that have never even held one will say with authority that they are no good.
Bizarre!!!!!!
I love those people... Nothing like an expert mate..! Have never seen it, have no idea what your talking bout, not even listening, yet still have an opinion which is apparently right.. ??!!..
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I have used BIC before while doing defence force work and found them not too but but when i worked on oils rigs doing service work we did find problems and then again due to salt... I have also found that BIC does need more TLC but that is my view....
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We use BIC in the oil and gas industry and they get put under the hammer as we use really salty bore water for our fire water and have pressures of 1100 kpa at the hydrant head due to 3 large pumps on the ring main and large Rosenbauer pumps on the appliances. I think that they are ok, really quick to snap together at a job would just need to teach CFS that the female goes to the fire.
But after talking to N.S.W. fire fighters both rural and urban they are more than happy with stortz.
So any change would be good but i cant see it happening in a hurry considering at CFS we are still wearing FRP cylinders instead of carbon fibre. Oops thats another can of worms!
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[/quote]
I love those people... Nothing like an expert mate..! Have never seen it, have no idea what your talking bout, not even listening, yet still have an opinion which is apparently right.. ??!!..
[/quote]
Yea tell me about it!
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Some boosters are fed by tank supplies rather than, or in addition to, mains supplies. These boosters are designed to be draughted out of.
Ta for that.
Have seen a couple - didn't make the connection (if you'll pardon the pun). Regarded it as "draughting" out of a tank rather than "boosting" mains. Keeps it simple for my poor addled brain. We do more of the former than the latter.