Author Topic: Could CFS brigades form SES units? (Read 14602 times)

chook · « **on:** December 22, 2007, 05:43:21 PM »

While we were down at Pinnaroo it occurred to me that the brigades down there only needed our specialist knowledge & equipment. So over the last few days I've been thinking of an idea that would give them the skills & equipment to deal with the stuff that mother nature throws at all of us.
The idea being that members of those brigades could form an SES unit, they would then be trained and equipped with the gear. For example Lamaroo, Pinnaroo and Parilla members could form a unit, members in the brigades of the mallee another unit - they would get a proper rescue truck, roof safety kits etc. Then I remembered its already been done! Onkaparinga!!
So what do think?
Also I got shown over the 24P rescue Pinnaroo has - same spreaders & cutters, smaller pump, nice tilting tool brackets. Don't like having the tools up so high & having to connect the tools every time but. They were impressed with our gear & set up. And the other gear we have access to - recipros, nail guns etc.
Anyway what do you think? I think its the best of both worlds

cheers

Zippy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2007, 06:02:38 PM »

Youll find all 4 brigades of Onkaparinga CFS Group are SES...AND Yankalilla which i recently checked out after my KI deployment and its very well set up.

In the case of onkaparinga...only Lobethal has SES trucks to respond in, while the others respond in CFS appliances.

RescueHazmat · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2007, 06:03:40 PM »

There are a number of joint CFS/SES stations, where members are registered with both services, and depending on the job, take which ever truck warrants it..

chook · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2007, 06:12:44 PM »

Yep know all of that I'm talking about "spreading the love further" into areas where there isn't a SES unit near by.
And yes Zippy Strath is an excellent setup - infact most RCR trucks are set up pretty much the same.
cheers

country kid · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2007, 06:32:23 PM »

its funny coz that thourght came to me the other day aswell.

i know the more rural cfs do a lot of the fallen trees and are RCR responce and stuff, but if they could under take a little more training they could help out with land searches and stuff Storm and Flood damage. it makes sence, and well it would be easier then sending crews from else where. it would be local knowledge and stuff aswell.

yeh my opinion only!

country kid

chook · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2007, 06:37:43 PM »

Thats exactly what I was thinking - even if several different brigades members got together to form a unit for the area.
To me its a win win.
cheers

Baxter · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2007, 09:49:41 PM »

Just to through in my two bobs worth one needs to looks at the incidents at which the they attend and then ask the simple the question of what training do I need to do to perform that job. For the Brigade that I am in we have a pretty much an even balance between taskings that are either SES related and CFS related. The problem lies with the cross service training neither service really encourages it but with a government that like taking the axe to things maybe we should look at the overall training and have one RTO not three that way skills and knowledge could be shared more easily. Why create SAFECOM for admin purposes why not go the next step and have one service i.e. combine both SES and CFS and in the fullness of time maybe the MFS will join.

chook · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2007, 10:25:01 PM »

As I have said in other posts its a great idea in theory, in practice I think it wouldn't work. So I won't repeat myself.
Just I don't think every brigade needs training in every thing, however if several brigades in an area say members from brigades on the Loxton - M/bridge rd formed a unit, then the guys would have access to equipment and training for rescue, storm, search stuff.
I feel that if we were one service it would be focused on the metro area and very fire centered. Goodbye specialist gear and training.
Anyway thanks for your thoughts - by the way we have no probs with cross training CFS/MFS crews as long as its not to undercut us! I've been on vertical courses with CFS guys no dramas. However when a retained MFS person wants to be trained in a field and then said so they can respond instead of the SES unit that is a concern

cheers

6739264 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 23, 2007, 08:37:10 AM »

Its called having a Rescue truck in a fire station. You wouldn't need to 'form' an SES unit merely put a properly stowed Rescue/Salvage truck in fire stations at strategic locations. If you need to cross crew this appliance with persons from surrounding stations then that can easily be achieved - as long as its not going to impact upon response to life-threatening situations.

Oh chook, you card, you!

chook · « **Reply #9 on:** December 23, 2007, 09:06:26 AM »

Yep - thought you would be pleased

And yep that is all it would take - except from the fire service point of view you would get a "hybrid" 24P/34P. The guys were impressed with the resources we can bring to the job and no duplication, would a salvage truck carry nail guns for example?
This is a way for communities to "play the system" & ensure adequate resources for all types of emergencies not just fire. Until of course your dream becomes a reality

And if it was members of several nearby communities, who just happen to be CFS members - who could stop them?
And you wouldn't get one truck, the minimum would be two - a 31 rescue truck and a 41 4x4 and if you were very lucky the 31 would be a 91 RCR truck!
As I said it was just a thought for those guys where SES is a fair distance away.
cheers

Pipster · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2007, 09:07:10 AM »

All of the Onka Group were also SES..but in recent times, that has changed - with Loby being the only place with an SES vehicle...

The problem that Onka members found, was that it was difficult for many people to keep up with the CFS competencies, and the SES competencies......

Besides, if you made more CFS brigades as SES units, the Government would not give the SES (or the CFS) anymore money to fund either...so you would have the same amount of money spread more thinly...

Pip

chook · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2007, 09:18:23 AM »

Are you sure?

6739264 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 23, 2007, 10:15:33 AM »

Quote from: chook on December 23, 2007, 09:06:26 AM

Yep - thought you would be pleased
And yep that is all it would take - except from the fire service point of view you would get a "hybrid" 24P/34P. The guys were impressed with the resources we can bring to the job and no duplication, would a salvage truck carry nail guns for example?
This is a way for communities to "play the system" & ensure adequate resources for all types of emergencies not just fire. Until of course your dream becomes a reality
And if it was members of several nearby communities, who just happen to be CFS members - who could stop them?
And you wouldn't get one truck, the minimum would be two - a 31 rescue truck and a 41 4x4 and if you were very lucky the 31 would be a 91 RCR truck!
As I said it was just a thought for those guys where SES is a fair distance away.
cheers

No-one said anything about getting a hybrid truck. If you are trying to bridge a gap in Rescue/Slavage cover, then you would not be getting a 'fire' truck... you do know that the fire services (CFS and MFS) both run stand alone heavy rescue trucks, don't you?

A rescue/salvage truck would of course carry a nail gun as well as water vacs, augers, squeegees, ceiling hooks, salvage sheets, tarps and other associated salvage gear.

That is of course if you can get the idea of correct rescue and salvage stowage through the thick skulls of those higher up.

chook · « **Reply #13 on:** December 23, 2007, 10:28:55 AM »

Are you hit the "nail" on the head - or is that nail gun on the head

This is an alternative to get passed those higher ups - (I have had dealings with some of them

)
And I know you have some rescue/salvage - its just that there are not many around.
Anyway its just an idea, as it seems mother nature is turning nasty (my daughter keeps reminding me its global warming & its ouf fault

).
Any way thanks for your thoughts, looking forward to the next time when we will be taking on mother nature together.
cheers

rescue5271 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2007, 11:02:09 AM »

It would not work, the local community could not supply any more members to help set up a local SES UNIT.What took place at Pinnaroo was a freak storm one that did wide damage to the area,local crews cfs did what they could SES from bordertown,loxton and renmark where called into help. One thing that people forget is that country towns like pinnaroo no longer have the mann power and so it always take time to get help into these areas.The other issue is duplication this is what we would be doing if we where to open a SES unit there,CFS do a great job in the area for rescue. So my view only is NO there is no need just need to make sure that if it happens again that we call for help and they did and it did come. From what I read on the pager site the problem was SES could not get crews as they where flat out in their own area......

6739264 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 23, 2007, 12:05:37 PM »

One day chook, one day mate, it'll all be sorted.

Just gotta get those "CFS only fight bushfires" people out of head office, and the "SES are a catering and gardening service" people on side

bajdas · « **Reply #16 on:** December 23, 2007, 12:59:31 PM »

An alternative would to follow the SES North region & Hawker SES unit 'outreach' setup..

They have setup covered tandem trailers in local communities in aboriginal lands and far north areas which is accessible to the local community until the next specialist resource arrives.

The basic training of the local community (in this case farmers, CFS) comes from the closest SES Unit and the group is classified as part of the parent SES Unit. Just an outreach group.

In reality, how much extra training would be required for a farmer to use power tools ?? Not much.....

No extra admin overhead, SGIC supplied the equipment, the trailer can be towed behind an existing four wheel drive, the equipment can be transferred quickly to another truck, takes up little storage space, less expensive than another vehicle in setup & on-going costs, etc, etc.

Another question....with Pinnaroo, would it have made much difference to the people affected by the storm if the crew arrived in 10 minutes or 60 minutes ?? Serious question because it is structural damage not life risk.

country kid · « **Reply #17 on:** December 23, 2007, 02:16:04 PM »

i said wat i did, because i know the little rural cfs tend to do the local fallen trees. thats the way it is, because thats all there is, it is seen to be helping the community, and well a fallen tree, can turn out to be a carVs fallen tree so we cant aslways wait for the closest SES to get there.
but basically if the CFS can help the community by cutting up a fallen tree, i honestly think that the could help the community by doing a land search for locals and wat not. so i just thourght it makes sence!

anyways.

country kid

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #18 on:** December 23, 2007, 05:14:47 PM »

Quote from: rescue5271 on December 23, 2007, 11:02:09 AM

It would not work, the local community could not supply any more members to help set up a local SES UNIT.

Isn't the point of this thread that the CFS brigade gets an SES truck and does SES jobs, rather than duplicating resources and needing more volunteers?

F.B.R.T · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2007, 09:14:42 PM »

In this day and age of volunteer shortages in most communities, it would be more practical to have the SES style appliance rebadged CFS and that brigade use it when required.

Maybe CFS could offer other courses to bridge the gaps, but there would have to be cost savings with keeping that brigade "one service" instead of opening an additional unit requiring additional admin and other assorted costs.

rescue5271 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 24, 2007, 05:33:27 AM »

for CFS to do this they would have to provide a bigger station?? Also if the brigade/group also has the equipment that is with in the group why give them another appliance?? Sounds good but the problem would be the MONEY side of things,I am sure there are other brigade's that would have a pool of equipment that is in their group that they call for or the seek help from the local council or farm suppliers/hardware shops in their area.

F.B.R.T · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2007, 11:24:19 AM »

Very true Blinky!
I was just generalising in my post.
Many brigades would not need further vehicles, perhaps more equipment and training.

chook · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2007, 02:44:42 PM »

Ok, so on the whole you guys don't think its a great idea - cool I can live with that.
For the record, the units that responded to Pinnaroo were Bordertown(3), Murray bridge(3)& Berri(7). Loxton were too busy with their own stuff, Renmark couldn't get a crew until the following day.
Remember that we are the storm/ flood agency, just as you guys are fire!
And this is not the first response of this type of event into the Mallee and it looks like it will increase - thats what the Met guys are saying anyway.
Just remember while you guys are coming up with all these reasons around cost, storm events cost more in insurance terms than any other event.
As I said it was only an idea - who knows one day it may happen anyway.
By the way rebadging our trucks (from our budget)is just crazy!
cheers

6739264 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 24, 2007, 02:56:52 PM »

Chooky don't forget that the necessity for time critical response isn't usually there in Storm and Tempest operations, compared to fires

chook · « **Reply #24 on:** December 24, 2007, 03:25:09 PM »

True however the information we got from Pinnaroo was that the hospital was hit & the CFS station. As it turned out things were not as bad as we were told, in fact of the 15 or so structures damaged only a few really needed our expertise.
Had I known this info prior to deploying, I may have reconsidered actually going there & leaving our own town with minimal coverage.
That was the point of this post, expanding the knowledge base into areas where we are thin on the ground (accurate recon would have been good).
Anyway as I said in the previous reply it seems you guys aren't keen, eventhough it would be a win win situation. So as I said it was only an idea.
cheers