Hyperthetical (spelling?) Incidents

[Camo]

Gday Folks,

Bit bored so i thought i would make up a hyperthetical incident and get everyone to give their thoughts on how they would handle it.

House Fire - 2 Story, 3 Trapped Occupants, Left hand side of house fully involved (Top and Bottom Story), Entry on the right side at the top and centre back and front on bottom story.

Crew/Trucks Available - 1 x Type 2 Pumper with 4 x CABA, 2 x Rural 34's With 2 x CABA sets each & 1 x 14 No CABA.  Each truck has a crew of 5 with everyone BA trained (14 is a new mitsi canter dualcab).  Mains water is available but is approx. 200 metres to the nearest hydrant.

Give your thoughts on what you would do from first appliance arrival right thru to containment.

Have Fun

[Toast]

Relay pump from the hydrant, set up a few monitors, kick back, relax, surround and drown.

[PF_]

"Hypothetical"  

I havent had enough experience to know what to do but Ill give it a shot from what I have picked up from movies ( ) and books  

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Firstly as OIC I would conduct a 360degree recce and ensure SAAS, SAPOL are on their way.  I would use the 14 and a 34 for hoses and water carting, connect them to the type 2 pumper.  Type2pumper would be the primary appliance to knock down the fire.  2 BA crews from the 34 would be my rescue men, maybe send 3 crew in with 38mm hose and maybe 1 or 2 from the 14 goign in as well with them as search and rescue.  I would send in the type2 hosemen to assess and conduct internal attack and cover the searchers for a while.  If the 3 people trapped are in the left hand side of the house it is porbably too dangerous to continue trying to find them so the searchand rescue crew will have to evacuate and attack the fire with hoses internally with the type2 crew.  I would also have called for extra crews MFS, CFS whichever is available.  If they manage to find the 3 trapped and they are alive then that would be priority to get them out!  Should the fire bee to much of an inferno than I would pull everyone out of the inside and conduct a surround and drown.

Is that about right how it works?

[Toast]

Not bad, although the 14 has no BA, and youve left no one outside to cover the BA operators inside.

Pumper guys and gals...'PUMPER' Unless you mean Ford Trader Type 2 Pumper, then you say '12'

[Robert-Robert34]

I would instruct all the appliances on scene to do relay pumping with the appliance closest to mains supply to act as the tanker... utilize the 14 & 34 appliances to knock down the fire, send in 2 CABA Crews with 2 x charged 38 mm lines to do internal attack and S&R, if any casualties are found 1 CABA crew would pull out and bring the casualties to safety for treatment by SAAS ICU Crews

While the people are being treated by ICU Crews i would instruct my crews to focus on attacking the fire from the outside until it is contained then secure premises until SAMFS Fire Cause Investigators arrive

[Toast]

(By the way because I can't be bothered with a decent reply yet, I'll just criticise the rest of you, untill I think of something constructive to post)

But Robert! You've a Medium Urban Pumper you're not using! The thing is built for this, and you've relegated the poor fellow to the sidelines!

[medevac]

come on toast, lets hear your pearls of wisdom then 

[Toast]

After work, don't worry, I'll still criticise my own work

[Robert-Robert34]

What i meant by the relay pumping toast is that all 4 appliances would be getting water from the appliance closest to the mains supply...The medium urban pumper would be the one used for internal attack hose lines

While the 14 and 34 units would be attacking the fire from the outside

[CFS_Firey]

You have a 2 story house, half of which is burning! Do you really think the occupants are going to survive? and is the structure still going to have enough integrity to commit BA crews with such a slim chance of the casualties being alive?
I'm inclined to agree with Toast - surround and drown...

Unless you had specific info about where the casualties are (like the mother of the trapped kids can say for sure that they are in bed, and show you what room that is...) - then I might try a smash and grab...


Robert; We are taught not to attack house fires from the outside when crews are inside, as our water streams will force the flames into unburnt areas and assist in fire spread.  Instead, we can attack from the inside (With BA of course ) and force the fire away from the unburnt area.

[PF_]

mate my thoughts on this are from unrealsitinc movies and some books so going in might not be the best but it might be alright.  He said left side is fully involved, I envisaged only the left side bruning and the right side reltively alright, well alright enough to enter. 

C'mon CFS Firey, wheres your input   

[CFS_Firey]

That was my input...
unless you want a blow by blow description of how I'd surround and drown...
Use one of the 34's to relay pump to the Pumper and other 34. 2x crews in BA check around all windows and external doors for casualties, 2X crews in BA protect exposures. 2x Crews in BA Attack the fire from the outside with hoselines from the pumper and 34. 2X BA sit and watch Donned, but not started up.

The deal with half the house being alight is that the fire will compromise the strength of the beams holding the second floor and roof up - so even though the RHS of the house may be untouched the roof and second floor are still likely to collapse.  Not to mention the super heated gases from the fire replacing breathable air...

[Toast]

Ok, so what type of construction is the building? Is it new? Its it beginning to fall down? From the outside, what is the structural integrity looking like? Do we know roughly where people are?

So, the Pumper will run one 38mm line (2xBA) inside to the bottom story for a VERY quick primary search, one 34 will gain access (2xBA+1x38mm) to the second story via a ladder placed on the opposite end of the building to the fire, if things are looking ok structurally, for again, a quick primary search. The other 34 will be relay pumping from the hydrant with the 14 looking for another water source. Both the pumper and the first 34 will have a second/third line out each covering exposures, using the remaining BA operators from both of those appliances and the relay pumping 34. If the structure is looking stable, fire suppression activities will commence from both stories simultaneously. If the structure is looking unstable, all crew will be out of the building and will commence a defensive attack with BA. Also 2xBA kept outside for RIT, if things are not looking good then 4xBA kept outside for RIT.

Mind you, if the locations of the people weren't known or were suspected to be in areas where the fire had already impinged, I would seriously question the use of interior attack crews.

[Darius]

So, the Pumper will run one 38mm line (2xBA) inside to the bottom story for a VERY quick primary search, one 34 will gain access (2xBA+1x38mm) [....]

I noticed a couple of you said the BA guys take a 38mm line in with them.  Wouldn't a 25mm be sufficient and easier to carry/manhandle?

[Firefrog]

38mm is the correct choice, it provides the appropriate volume for effective gas cooling and fire attack. With the Heat release rate of a fire this size a 25mm is not quite hard hitting enough.

[fire03rescue]

Firefrog that is your opinion about the 38mm. It might work for you
But I have used Hpline  a heap of times for a internal attack.
I know lots of MFS firefighter that use this everyday for fires and it works for them.
if I was doing a external attack I would use a Hpline or64mm, I can't see the use at all for a 38mm.
Yes I have tried 38mm, but Iam not a fan of it

[medevac]

have to admit we use the HP for everything.... we rarely use 64mm and dont even carry 48s....


im sure a 38 has its benefits ovver a 25 for internal attack, but getting to work and handling the line is much easier/quicker with the smaller stuff...

[CFS_Firey]

Don't you have to carry 38s as part of standard stowage? (I assume you meant 38 not 48)

By the way, Hypothetical is the correct spelling...

[Mike]

All to do with flow rates and what you want to achieve. Your never going to get the same amount of water out a 25 as you will a 38.

Only 64 is not really an option either (big bulky heavy) particularly if you want to maintain pressure/flow over a long distance.

We all modify our tactics to suit the need......

[medevac]

38 was the intended number... 

you are possibly correct re; standard stowage... but then again, if its not getting used... might as well make way for more layflat and 64mm.

how many do you guys carry? as well as our 2x100m HP reels, we have 7 layflats and 6 64s plus a filler length on our primary truck

[TillerMan]

38's depend on the appliance, H.P lines are useless for structure fires on 24p's and 24's because they are not actually high pressure they are just hose reels, I personally have never used a 38 at a structure fire because i have always been at brigade's with a pumper that has high pressure lines or MFS appliances.

The job would highly depend on order of arrival and the times of arrival. eg. if the type 2 was first arrival for 5 or 10 minutes they would need to run their own water and not commit anyone at all and just start an external attack, then when a 34 arrived they could break the hose to the hydrant and boost the pressure to the type 2 then send their B.A ops up to the job and extra crew and then a quick search may be considered, then the next 34 and 14 would run other hose and assist. In the mean time i would probably be asking for another 2 appliances or 1 appliance and tanker forthwith. The type 2's can run more hoses than you would need so i would have that as the pumping appliance and have the others consintrate on getting 2 good water sources.

[medevac]

38's depend on the appliance, H.P lines are useless for structure fires on 24p's and 24's because they are not actually high pressure they are just hose reels, I personally have never used a 38 at a structure fire because i have always been at brigade's with a pumper that has high pressure lines or MFS appliances.

Well put

[rescue5271]

As the type two has flake hose lockers I would lay hose from hydrant as we pull up outside the front of the house,while CABA members get gear on  and start a knock down and protect expouseres. The first 34 on scene is to take over expouseres attack and run a second feed line into pumper.Pumper crew get to work with internal attack with 38mm hose 2nd 34 crew get caba on and stand by to go inside The 14 crew will be used to set up a caba area as well as run out more hose to provide attack and feedlines.


PROBLEMS : poor water supply in the mains
         : would the 3 trapped people still be alive?
           are we sure they are in there and if so where?

         : How long has the crews I have been in the job??
         : what time frame will it take for the 34/14
           rural appliances to arrive at the fire
         : what are the exposures that need to be protected.

[CFS_Firey]

Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?

[Toast]

Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?

Uh Huh. Rescue, Exposures, Completely, Engulfed, Oh!, Stupid, Vehicle! (RECEO SV)