Author Topic: 50mm hose  (Read 24132 times)

Offline bittenyakka

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50mm hose
« on: March 18, 2007, 06:05:56 PM »
As MFS use 50mm as their main working hose and i believe it is on some CFS pumpers  does anyone think this type of hose  has any use in CFS standard stowage on 24/34 appliances?

Offline Pixie

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2007, 09:24:33 PM »
MFS use 50mm hose for most jobs, with modern ff techniques such as those taught in compartment fire behaviour, we are using less and less water to supress fires, for this reason i think it would be almost silly for CFS to adopt the 50mm hose size as standard stoweage. 
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Offline SA Firey

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 02:03:20 AM »
We dont need 50mm :-P
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Offline Camo

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2007, 09:45:45 AM »
Darn tootin.  No need for it. 

38mm gives enough pressure/water for any internal attack.

64mm is great for water supply and large surround and drown jobs.


The very few occasions when it could be handy is not enough to go put it onto our already overflowing trucks.
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Offline TillerMan

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 11:10:34 AM »
What you have to remember is that MFS appliances have true High pressure lines which put out the same amount of water as a 38mm line therefore they just use H.P lines and not 38s. They use 50mm lines purely as a working length on the end of 64mm lines to make it easier to handle. Using the 50mm hose loses very little volume and increases pressure.

So in answer to your question no they shouldn't be on any other appliance other than a pumper.

Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 11:54:36 AM »
Using the 50mm hose loses very little volume and increases pressure.

So the hose increases pressue? There I was thinking it was the pump.
Based on the fact water is incompressible the only loss in volume would occur if it had a leak.

Offline Stefan KIRKMOE

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 02:49:23 PM »
We carry a couple of 50mm hoses on Burnside pumper, I have used it a number of times in anger and think it's an awesome working length. I would go as far as to say that I have used in more than i have ever used 38mm lines. As previously stated i think if CFS appliances had true high pressure pumps then HP lines would be more effective and efficient and therefore used far more often compared to 38mm lines....

My thoughts only....

Offline car31

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 03:13:02 PM »
I think skirkmoe's comment has merit, maybe have 50mm hoses as standard stowage on the type 2 pumpers??

Offline TillerMan

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 03:17:41 PM »
Well i dont know about you but i thought when you force 64mm worth of water into a 50mm hole the water would have to speed up therefore giving you more pressure at the tip...

Offline Camo

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 03:26:10 PM »
What you have to remember is that MFS appliances have true High pressure lines which put out the same amount of water as a 38mm line therefore they just use H.P lines and not 38s. They use 50mm lines purely as a working length on the end of 64mm lines to make it easier to handle. Using the 50mm hose loses very little volume and increases pressure.

So in answer to your question no they shouldn't be on any other appliance other than a pumper.

This is probaly the best comment of the thread.  Unless you have actually used it then you probaly wont see a need for it.
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 05:25:13 PM »
Tiller man is correct with the increase of pressure. The best example is a garden hose that you put your finger on the end where you get way more pressure but much less volume. or just a branch where you set the LPM to 19 and there is more pressure.

So essentially a 50mm hose is only use full on pumpers with the extra pressure. Do they require any less strength to use by your self than a 64mm?
 


Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 08:36:44 AM »
You put your finger over the end of a 64mm, 50mm and 38mm hose line and tell me the difference. While your at it take a photo and post it to SAFF.

Your ill informed assumption is completely wrong. Smaller hose lines do not increase pressure at the action end.
You don't need any general solution to the Navier-Stokes equations. Just a simple energy balance. Perhaps consider Bernoulli's equation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_equation

Its all about pump output (Pressure vs Volume relationship) and hose line impedance. While the diameter of the hose is a limiting factor in pump output volume it is completely incorrect to say that reducing hose diameter increases nozzle pressure (both of you are completely wrong).
For the same material smaller hoses do have higher bursting pressure but this is a different matter all together.

The main issue here is a trade off between internal hose friction and pump end pressure vs ease of handling (both weight and flexability).


PS If you do have for mentioned general solution to the Navier-Stokes equations please get in contact with me.

This has been another public education message from RHIT (Royal Hicksflat Institute of technology). Making saff a slightly less stupid place to be.

Offline Mike

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 09:27:33 AM »
**Edit - First statement was dodgy**

If we are looking at a simplistic view.

If you try and force the same volume of something into a smaller space the pressure exerted to achieve this will increase...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 10:05:19 AM by Mike »

Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 02:20:27 PM »
Without graphics this is probably going to go over some people. Fluid dynamics is a second semester first year subject at RHIT requiring prerequisites of statics and dynamics. If you like fighting fires or watching day time TV stop here and go read some "funny" pager messages, or dig up a thread from over a year ago with a post including the phrase "I haven't heard anything lately hows that going now" or add a smiley face.

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If you try and force the same volume of something into a smaller space the pressure exerted to achieve this will increase...

Correct. To obtain the same volumetric flow rate through a smaller diameter requires higher pressure PUMP end. But this does not equate to a higher pressure nozzle end for the same nozzle and volumetric flow rate (which is what they were talking about).

A particular nozzle setting and flow rate will require a particular pressure differential hose side to atmosphere side. So for the same flow rate and nozzle geometry this pressure differential across the nozzle is exactly the same regardless of hose size or type (both static and dynamic pressure).

With the pressure on the hose side of the nozzle (no matter the hose size) now fixed lets start talking about hose loss (friction) and flow energy (pressure volume) and kinetic energy from the pump to the hose side of the nozzle.

The smaller the hose the higher the pressure required to produce the velocity in response to the reduction in cross sectional area for the same volumetric flow rate.

However this is negated by our fixed nozzle outlet cross sectional area (and velocity). This is based on the fact all the flow energy (gage pressure based) will be converted to kinetic energy (the water jet basically at atmospheric pressure) no matter the hose size.

But the higher velocity required in the smaller hose to obtain the same volumetric flow rate increases friction and viscous forces. This is what increases pressure drop between the pump and the nozzle. As the hose side nozzle pressure is fixed, PUMP pressure must increase to obtain the same volumetric flow rate.

So the at the end of the day for the same flow rate and nozzle geometry the frictional loss is the key.

Slightly different story for fixed PUMP pressure and nozzle geometry

But the end result is about the same being that there is no increase in effective pressure with reduced hose diameters. Although the burst pressure may be higher depending on construction.

The comment

"i thought when you force 64mm worth of water into a 50mm hole the water would have to speed up therefore giving you more pressure at the tip..."

Partly recognises the concept but completely miss understands the application of static and dynamic pressures.

Offline Camo

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 03:10:15 PM »
Has anyone ever told you that you are a tool!

If you think this is such a stupid place to be then why are you here?
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Offline wilma

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 03:59:38 PM »
it all reverts back to BFF1      :-P
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Offline Blue

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 04:20:46 PM »
Shame they don't offer communication subjects at RHIT, where you learn not be such a prat while sharing information.

I hadn't heard of the RHIT, I thought it was the State Hicksflat Institute of Technology. (You know how much I love my acronyms....)

Offline TillerMan

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 11:29:55 AM »
Yeah well we all think your great but it would be nice if you could actually write it in lay terms so that we can all learn something...

So what you are saying is if i set my pump to 1000KPA with 2 lengths of 64mm hose coming off 1 outlet with a TFT branch on full and then replace the 64mm hose closest to the nozzle end with a 25mm hose still with the same TFT branch on full there will be no difference in pressure at the tip?

Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2007, 04:02:03 PM »
Quote
there will be no difference in pressure at the tip?

You started talking about constant volumetric flow rate "when you force 64mm worth of water into a 50mm hole" and the nozzle pressure "therefore giving you more pressure at the tip" previous answer was based on this.

ie the situation where the flow rate remained constant and in that case yes, the nozzle end pressure is the same no matter the hose size. Ie it takes the same pressure at the NOZZLE to drive the same amount of water out of it. However the PUMP pressure will need to be much higher with the smaller hose to get the same NOZZLE end pressure and flow rate.

(layman: smaller hose, same flow rate, same nozzle pressure, higher pump pressure)

However your question NOW relates to constant PUMP pressure. Which is a different situation. In that case volumetric flow rate will change. This is because in the smaller hose the water will travel faster and result in higher frictional pressure loss. So in this case NOZZLE pressure will drop which is what most would expect. But your initial post said "loses very little volume and increases pressure" which is wrong.

(layman: smaller hose, same pump pressure, lower flow, lower nozzle pressure )

It's a simultaneous equation type problem. As the operation point of the hose system is the match between the pump output and hose line impedance. Things get even more tricky when a TFT is involved as they generally have self adjusting variable geometry.

Your statement
"water speed up therefore giving you more pressure at the tip..."
confuses static and dynamic pressures. Think about a venturi like the ones used in the direct induction foam branches. They actually use a constriction to make the water flow faster and a pressure low enough to draw the concentrate up from the drum (lower then atmospheric). So yes the greater the velocity the greater the difference between the dynamic pressure and static pressure. But smaller hoses doesn't equate to more pressure at the NOZZLE.

Anyway when Ive got a moment I may knock up some diagrams and stuff and post them somewhere on SAFF that may be a nice reference for people.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2007, 04:28:54 PM »
so essentially the Pressure measured at the pump end can be different to the pressure at the Branch end.

How come certain pumps are advertised as 3800 LPM @ 1000 kPa, 750 LPM @ 4000 kPa, 380 LPM @ 6200 kPa which is saying more volume can be moved at lower pressures.

Offline Firefrog

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 08:04:37 AM »
This is all very interesting but in my time as a water squirter it never matters. If you need more pressure or volume you ask the pumpy for more - which they give you if they can. If the hose and pump configuration you are using doesn't have enough flow to overcome the heat release of the fire then add more hoses/pumps.

Let's keep it simple a fire ground is not the place for volumetric pressure this and that. I like training that is real world, practical and easily understood.

There is a place for this depth of understanding and I commend anyone that has it. Most fireys I have ever met would struggle with most of the scientific explanations above. And then they would say to me why does it matter. :-D 8-)

Offline Evac

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 03:16:07 PM »
Got to love common sense!!!!
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Offline TillerMan

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM »
Here Here....

The main thing is they are good hoses to work with if you have the appliance to utilise it...

Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2007, 02:32:12 PM »
Quote
How come certain pumps are advertised as 3800 LPM @ 1000 kPa, 750 LPM @ 4000 kPa, 380 LPM @ 6200 kPa which is saying more volume can be moved at lower pressures.

Its related to whats commonly known as a pump performance curve. Pumps can be optimised for different performance primarily by the shape and dimensions of the impeller, ie radius, thickness, vain spacing, vain curvature. All this results in a different pressure performance relationship, one coming at the expense of the other. Usually pumps are tuned for optimum performance/efficiency at one particular setting. While were not too fussed about efficiency its a very critical factor when your using pumps in your business to get a pump optimised to the pressure/volume required.

If you look at just about any of the pump suppliers web sites they have them  (darley etc). Even domestic pumps like onga have them. Many of the performance curves just give the performance at max RPM. The pumps we use (and many modern electric industrial pumps) have variable speed so there is another dimension to the curve really making it a 3D surface. Then there are additional corrections required based on pump inlet pressure etc.

Firefighters are primarily interested in what volume they can get at hose rated pressures. So if the pump has been matched up with the correct motor/gearing it should be able to provide that particular volume at that particular pressure.

Quote
Let's keep it simple a fire ground is not the place for volumetric pressure this and that.

Many fire services think otherwise. Thats why REAL pumpers have all this instrumented and displayed on the pump panel and in some services they train members to a higher level of understanding.

While volunteers don't do it much these days its also useful for appliance design. I bet the Burnside crew have spent many an hour flicking through manuals to get the pump they think they deserve on their new appliance (lets call it 441a)

Its also a useful part of planning. Lets say you expect that there will be 5 air tractors flying in and out of a nearby airstrip, each with a 3000L load on a 6 minute turn around and your going to bomb all day long dawn to dusk. Is the current pump capacity at the field sufficient? Do you need a pump that a local farmer has offered? Do you need to ship one from Adelaide overnight? or just commit an appliance to sit there and have one less on the fire line?

On the upper end most large industrial fires would have a team of engineers calculating numbers and equations all day long. How much water is going on, how much run off will there be, how to contain it. If your putting so much water onto a ship how long till it sinks or becomes unstable etc etc. Firefighting is half art half science.

Quote
I like training that is real world, practical and easily understood

Trial and error can be an expensive and dangerous pursuit. Understanding is critical in what we do so we can adapt to the situation to optimise the outcome without having to try the other umpteen options.

In the fire service we should start off as recruits knowing how and progress to why. Most national accreditation based learning doesn't really progress beyond how as it is considered unnecessary. However failure to go beyond how results in lack of innovation as people just do things as thats the way things have always been. While not everyone has to go beyond how the majority should to some extent.

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Most fireys I have ever met would struggle with most of the scientific explanations above"

Indeed but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be exposed to it from time to time even if they don't understand it fully. God forbid we should ever think and just trust that those higher up in the system are thinking for us.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 50mm hose
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2007, 05:44:35 PM »
Thanks for that explanation

It is good that CFS generally won't have to combat ship fires and other fires that require huge equations but watching your runoff is important.

just a quick poll if CFS was to put a course on where you could learn all this stuff would you go? I would like to but I would probably forget it all the next day.