Experiance on of OIC

[bittenyakka]

In the CFS it is some times an issue where a FF with not much experience gets the task of running a job. I read this http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=91011
On firehouse and thought it was a case of incredible American's wanting authority. But out of interest wondered if any of you guys and gals had had similar situations or what you would do if you can see that something is not going to work?

[probie_boy]

I have been OIC of a vehicle twice before. Now, before I go on i'll point out that im 18 and have been in for 2 years, so I was definitely not a first choice for both.

The first time I was OIC of a second responding vehicle with captain who was driving and two first jobbers. So I was the only real option. I didn't freak out or mess up which I was happy with but we got stopped on arrival so i didn't have to do much.

second time was on night shift for the onka gorge fire. At the time I thought I was the last choice again due to the most experienced guy driving. the other two guys weren't from my brigade so when we were at staging I was trying to work out these guys experience and whether they wanted to/ could do the job. They both were non commital so I took it on. Turns out that they had been in for 10 and 25 years respectively, which made me feel llike a right knob. Anyway, I did that job fairly easily, but there wasn't much to do besides basic radio talk and help plotting a backburn on the GPS.

When you don't have an officer, It just comes down to who you think is most suitable. Both times there were no other choices (or so I thought)when I took on the job. Fortunately both of those jobs hd wound down when I showed up. If one the size of mt bold came up i definitely wouldn't do it.

[mack]

chain of command...

thats pretty much all that can be said.

if there are no officers or seniors then it falls to a firefighter, if there is a firefighter that is able to take the role on with sufficient experience/quals. then no probs, ive done it many times myself as a FF and it happens in brigades statewide every day.

the thing to remember is though, if a FF is the most experienced/qualified person on the crew, then is the crew really adequate to respond at all?

[Smallflame]

...

the thing to remember is though, if a FF is the most experienced/qualified person on the crew, then is the crew really adequate to respond at all?

In a lot of cases, YES. A red stripe or a yellow helmet in the CFS is the result of a vote, not necessarily a ringing declaration of competence or leadership. Yes, a brigade may have the best in place, but in a lot of cases there ARE other firefighters with just as much, if not MORE experience who are just that; firefighters.

As long as the level of experience and qualifications of the crew as a whole are adequate, and these are taken into account then why SHOULDNT a truck full of white helmets be, as Mack put it, "Adequate" to get the job done?

[Pipster]

How many brigades work specifically on providing training to their fire fighters, in taking control of an incident, so that it an Officer is not there, at least those in the crew are confident, and competent at doing the job ?

I spend a fair bit of time in my brigade doing this - everyone in the brigade gets some of this training - and it helps to identify future Officers.  Those that show some potential end up getting some extra training..

Pip

[uniden]

So what are you saying Mack? If the FF is in charge dont respond? That would be interesting to explain to a coroner (worst case scenario).

[mack]

lol


firstly smallflame, i know all about what you are saying, and in my brigade there are a number of FFs that are better suited to our SFF positions, but of course when it comes down to it, everything is a popularity contest

Uniden - no i am not, i am a FF and have been in charge of appliances many times, what i was stating was that if a FF is in charge, then from my experience it usually means brigades  are running a bit short crewed, this was why i was stating the fact that it is always worth considering whether the crew is adequate for the job.

Also, what would be more difficult to explain to the coroner?

That you didnt respond because of an inadequate crew? or that a member of the public or a firefighter is dead because of an inadequate crew trying to "do the best they could"?

just my $0.02 anyway, i wouldnt hesitate to respond with a firie in charge if they had sufficient backup in the form of there crew.

[probie_boy]

just my $0.02 anyway

hahaha lol


sorry that just sounded funny to me

[mack]

just my $0.02 anyway

hahaha lol


sorry that just sounded funny to me

awesome...

[probie_boy]

just my $0.02 anyway

hahaha lol


sorry that just sounded funny to me

awesome...

wasnt it

[bittenyakka]

I guess it really comes down to the fact that in CFS we generally are expected to be able to run jobs if need be. Since this is considered and realised both the inexperienced and experienced can work together as a team an learn from each other and accept criticisms.

[5271rescue]

There needs to be in place where upcoming officers are given the chance to run a job and learn from the older officers who have the years and skills.a mentor system works well you can do as many courses as you like but that does not give you the skills to be a OIC or to take charge of a crew. You learn to be a officer by learning from those who have been there. but you also learn from your own mistakes....

[probie_boy]

STOP PRESS!!!


apparently, i've just been informed by my captain, who shall remain nameless, that at both those jobs, even though I sat in the front seat and did all that stuff, I was never OIC and therefore have never been.


please, by all means, disregard anything I have said because I have no experience in that field.

sorry for making you think I knew something on the topic...

[uniden]

Some people seem to think that cause you are sitting in the hot seat (front) that you are in charge. That of course is not a given, if the driver is a Senior/LT/Captain etc they can still have a good position to be in charge of the appliance if they are the only one who can drive. This gets a little tricky when you are at a running grass fire though.

[5271rescue]

Well get more drivers trained up and let the officer sit in the passanger seat where they belong,but if you cant do that well let OIC drive and pass on instructions...

[Evac]

Its all crap. There is no way anyone without the experience should be oic of a truck. If you don't have an officer... don't go. How do you get experience-Be there help an OIC out. Don't just sit back and get all chummy with your mates and say one day i'll get voted in. There is way too much responsability required from an oic. What happens when someone stuffs up or needs reprimanding. As a non elected officer the ACT does not allow you to make some decisions.

[Pipster]

The same thing existed under our Country Fires Act...and I presume the new Act...only elected Officers (Lt & above) can authorise the lighting of a backburn, however a firefighter acting in the position of OIC can exercise all other powers of officers, as per the Act. 

Pip

[RescueHazmat]

STOP PRESS!!!


apparently, i've just been informed by my captain, who shall remain nameless, that at both those jobs, even though I sat in the front seat and did all that stuff, I was never OIC and therefore have never been.


please, by all means, disregard anything I have said because I have no experience in that field.

sorry for making you think I knew something on the topic...

Copied from my post on page 2 - Now I have found out Probie's post was not an accurate statememnt, and more a sarcastic remark.

Probie, I would like you to know, that due to the "sarcastic" post, I am going to make the following statement.

I openly apologise for the comment (which was worded poorly on my part) in regards to your captain.  I, believing I was sticking up for you as a younger member who 'seemed' to have been very unfairly and un-justly done by,  have typed my post in your defence in a way which read very poorly. A post which was only written in an attempt to stick up for you as a member of the service which you represent. For this I apologise to the member which the post was slightly directed too.. Now, knowing more of the story, I will remove my post.

May I add, that maybe when posts are sarcastic or "not meant" in the future it is made known.

Again, my sincere apologies.

[RescueHazmat]

Its all crap. There is no way anyone without the experience should be oic of a truck. If you don't have an officer... don't go. How do you get experience-Be there help an OIC out. Don't just sit back and get all chummy with your mates and say one day i'll get voted in. There is way too much responsability required from an oic. What happens when someone stuffs up or needs reprimanding. As a non elected officer the ACT does not allow you to make some decisions.

Have you ever been involved in a vol agency evac??  - particularly one where due to a popularity contest the same people are always Officers etc? - Makes it VERY hard sometimes for F/F's to get into the front seat..


Im lucky enough not to have the problem, but by the sounds of it, some do !

[fireblade]

Before i was made up, I had to take a few appliances as a Fire fighter to a number of diffrent jobs. Mind you I had been around a while and used the advice of some of the older guys that have been around longer than me but just dont want to be OIC.

I think you just got to make a judgment call on what you are responding to if you lack the years of experience, especially if the incident is of a technical nature.

Also you want get in trouble if you upgrade the call to get another appliance there with a Lt or Capt on board to let them take over incident control if you are uncomfortable or respond a DGO.

I got told years ago by our GO and one of our DGO's "Son you'll never get in trouble if you upgrade or respond someone for help. You will if you just try and hold the ball by yourself!"

A sort of very Australian quote but its true i guess.  

[bittenyakka]

i have been given a radio and told don't let the fire jump that rake hoe line and didn't let it for about half an hour until a lt came an took over. I learn't heaps.

fireblade's comment has been repeated in my station many times but sometimes i still see CFS members being so full of themselves that they don't ask for help.

[Darius]

I got told years ago by our GO and one of our DGO's "Son you'll never get in trouble if you upgrade or respond someone for help. You will if you just try and hold the ball by yourself!"
A sort of very Australian quote but its true i guess.  

mate you finally said something sensible! (and it was quoting someone else!!)    ah just kidding, well sort of.

But seriously, it pisses me off when I see someone have a go at another person for responding another truck/brigade as "we could have handled it ourselves".  If that person is not sure about the situation, there's no harm at all in erring on the side of caution.  We are all told in our group that if you find yourself as IC and you're not confident/happy about it, jump on the radio/phone and ask the group duty officer to respond.

[fireblade]

Darius your an evil man!

[wilma]

I know i would rather have a stop put on us than be called late and have to be there trying to contain someone elses Filtered up 

[Evac]

Rescuehazmat.... 20 years cfs experience, 6 as a brigade lieutenant and 6 as a DGO. i think i have had some exposure..... All in a reasonabley active urban / rural area.