Introduction of aerial appliances to the CFS

[6739264]

Zippy, you may want to notice the number of CFS issued memos/papers about Rural Fires compared to that or Structure Fires.

LECS, WATCHOUT and 10 Standard Fire orders all relate directly to Rural fires. Reading through SOP's COSO's and Operational Management Guidelines, nearly everything is related to rural fires.

Apart from the OBAOC Manual, CFB literature and a small amount of RECEO SV material in Level 3 there is comparatively nil about structural firefighting operations taught or acknowledged by CFS.

[Faux Pas]

Again though a lot of that comes down to Gavernment not giving CFS the funding to develop the course. CFS have had people in training in the past who have developed or put forward ideas but due to a lack of funding, just like where they are taking money from BA courses, these courses can't run.

[bittenyakka]

And put it into reality the CFS all brigades send members to rural jobs oftern more then once a year but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year? should funding go into suppress wildfire? or training RIT teams? based solely on figures?

i believe the is a need for more structural training but in the real world we would be lucky to get more than 1 BA job per year?

[6739264]

Again though a lot of that comes down to Gavernment not giving CFS the funding to develop the course. CFS have had people in training in the past who have developed or put forward ideas but due to a lack of funding, just like where they are taking money from BA courses, these courses can't run.

That may well be the case as far as funding for courses go, but to cultivate a culture within a service needs no government funding.

I'm not saying that CFS needs to become MFS, or have heavy pumpers in every station, but there need to be acknowledgment of the 'Firefighting' in all parts that we in the CFS do. The danger to firefighters in a burning structure is far far greater than that of those operating in at a bushfire, yet we get no little glossy cards reminding us of safety at anything other than a bushfire.

And put it into reality the CFS all brigades send members to rural jobs oftern more then once a year but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year? should funding go into suppress wildfire? or training RIT teams? based solely on figures?

i believe the is a need for more structural training but in the real world we would be lucky to get more than 1 BA job per year?

Your brigade may only got to 1 'going' structural job a year, but you need to think about other brigades. There are plenty of brigades that go to multiple structure fires a year. There is more to CFS and firefighting than just your slice of paradise.

[Faux Pas]

More indepth training should be introduced for structure fires but, sorry to those brigades that do maybe 3 structure jobs a year, the training should be limited to brigades in the urban and urban/rural category then the rural/urban category as a matter of need in those areas.

[bittenyakka]

hey i agree that we need more training in structural. and yeah limiting it like they have been doing with the plantation course is probably a good idea but should the entire rest of CFS take funding cuts from state wide applicable wildfire trainig for 5 or 6 brigades to get better structural training?

Personally I think there should be more reinforcement of the basics of structural firefighting than going out to teach fancy stuff. 

[Zippy]

STC did have there funding shifted around just to do the Safe Off Road driver training course, but i believe the government boosted up the funding to keep the already planned courses ready for running.  Once safe off road driving has been completed for the state...good idea would be to use the same amount of funding from now on for Urban firefighting courses.

[6739264]

Before we get too sidetracked, I was suggesting that the CFS just needs to look at both sides of firefighting, not just rural. The training that CFS deliver for Structural firefighting is great, there is really nothing 'fancy' that is being taught, its all basic knowledge. I was more referring to the ingrained culture of Rural firefighting as opposed to Urban firefighting that present in CFS.

hey i agree that we need more training in structural. and yeah limiting it like they have been doing with the plantation course is probably a good idea but should the entire rest of CFS take funding cuts from state wide applicable wildfire trainig for 5 or 6 brigades to get better structural training?

Same thing is happening with plantation courses though isn't it? I haven't got the remotest scent of a plantation in my response area, yet I consider plantation training a valuable tool to those brigades that deal with plantations in their response area. I know that I will almost never exposed to the training, yet why shouldn't it be taught?

[jaff]

Its a worry when you go to a callout with an adjoining brigades that urban/rural or meet some urban/rural brigades at a scrub or grass fire and they struggle to do the basics.Maybe more time needs to be devoted concentrating on the basics and getting a sound fireground/practice base before the more complex less used training is attempted every week, not every brigade needs to be MFS wannabes.. its a difficult balance dollars/time and training focuses.

Cheers Jaff

[6739264]

Yep, the basics of firefighting don't change from one day to the next. Sadly, those basics are easy for some to pick up, yet for others they need constant reinforcement.

Not every brigade needs to be MFS wannabes..

Thats part of the problem. Just because a brigade has a structural focus and cares about structural techniques, they are branded as MFS wannabees.

[sesroadcrashrescue]

or is it just that a lot of people are MFS wannabes some of my friends are MFS wannabes and i tell them to their face. yes CFS is now a multi emergency response agency it is no longer just grass and bush alot of brigades are now looking after large urban areas and massive structural risks as well as trying to keep up with rescue and hazmat.

brigades are also backing up MFS to going jobs as well as MFS backing up CFS. it can be done every body's way no one person is going to get what they want CS management spend the training money as they see fit for the whole state sometimes it seems unfair yes but that is life.

training does need to fit all brigades. brigades like butler, sharinga, avon, alma, the list goes on they dont need to know detailed ways of fighting structure fires they need to know the support roles pumping etc dalkeith sailsbury burnside mt barker the list again could go forever they need to know it inside out aim training at brigades that need that training and get the others up to standard out side the building but dont you think more focus on recruitment would be better at the moment as crew numbers are down and workload is up by 42% on what it has been  and yes the 42% is a fact   

[Alan J]

Yeah good idea lets use an aircraft that cost in excess of $2000 just to get off the ground to start fighting structure fires!! Please tell me you are not being serious!!!

The government providing appliances like this, good luck! The government have a hard enough time trying to understand what exactly it is that the CFS do, let alone being able to provide enough funding for what is actually required by the service in regards to replacement appliances, training, equipment and not to mention employing enough staff to actually provide volunteers with sufficient support during fires or the day to day running of the service.

To again quote Saint Phil Cheney regarding guvvermints & bushfires: ...high profile "... big fires, heroes, helicopters..." (rather than lots of low profile but urban-greenie-voter-upsetting fuel management activity - pulverators, cool burns, etc)  That's where the votes are, so that's where the dollars will flow.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why isn't enough money left in kitty to pay for the stuff we vollies really need. ie. all the stuff you list in your second para.

Faux Pas, for someone who, in postings in other topics sounds like a ministerial plant, in this one, you sound like someone who actually "gets it" !! What gives?

By the way, the Aircrane thing is a joke - just pulling inmate# 6739264's chain.
Thought I'd clarify that since I was the sarcastic illegitimatus that started it.
cheers
AJ

[Alan J]

No sorry, you can't expect the government to understand what the CFS does when the CFS doesn't even know what it does. According to the powers that be, we still only do Rural jobs. Go figure.

What's this "we" business ? 
The Fairy Godmother muttered something about doing Farawayland and King Iemma the Not-Terribly-Well-Organised.  I think.  Maybe I wasn't paying attention (common accusation - totally without... sorry what was that?)

Anyway...

I have definitely seen the word "Urban" in a CFS context - possibly an SOP detailing a selection of alternative tunes to the standard siren wail. 

Or it might have been an SFEC.

But probably the siren thingy. 
Now, where did I put my banjo...

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas, for someone who, in postings in other topics sounds like a ministerial plant, in this one, you sound like someone who actually "gets it" !! What gives?

Considering for a second that not every one shares the same views and opinions, it may also pay for you to consider that not all people have the same perspective regarding a service. There is more to the CFS than just the volunteers. If the service was run JUST by volunteers you would find that things would be even less achievable than some of you seem to think they are now through paid staff.

I have had experience in a number of different brigades that have ranged from very quiet to very busy and been involved with the service in a training capacity, seen the different sides of issues faced by these brigades and been able to take on board these differences that have resulted in me seeing things from a different perspective.

Simple solution to it all...Volunteers, Staff and the Government need to step outside the square their opinions live in and see it from each others perspective. That might promote a change in everyones thinking.

[6739264]

No sorry, you can't expect the government to understand what the CFS does when the CFS doesn't even know what it does. According to the powers that be, we still only do Rural jobs. Go figure.

What's this "we" business ? 
The Fairy Godmother muttered something about doing Farawayland and King Iemma the Not-Terribly-Well-Organised.  I think.  Maybe I wasn't paying attention (common accusation - totally without... sorry what was that?)

Anyway...

I have definitely seen the word "Urban" in a CFS context - possibly an SOP detailing a selection of alternative tunes to the standard siren wail. 

Or it might have been an SFEC.

But probably the siren thingy. 
Now, where did I put my banjo...

Ahem, sorry, I don't mean to tar all of the CFS with the same brush, as I know that there are a number of brigade that don't do anything urban at all. Now rather than using the collective 'we' for the service I shall endeavor to list all Brigade with an urban risk to qualify what I'm saying and to not hurt anyones feelings, before making a point.

Now you know as well as I do that the siren documentation is taken far more seriously than a jumble of letters like SFEC!

Anyhow, I don't really know anything seeing as though I'm merely a fly by night hick with a banjo who really isn't part of any service anywhere and simply bullshits on about things gleaned from textbooks!

Now! All the CFS needs are Trucks, Ladders and Engines...

Or maybe Rescues, Pumpers, Telebooms, and Ultra Larges...

[Zippy]

Morphett Vale should get a Teleboom (yes i think CFS could do better than a old Skyjet). 

Not a single Aerial resource below Cross Roads in the city.

The Focus of this topic does centralise on the Urban Fringe and close large Country towns like Mt Barker.

[pumprescue]

I think we should adopt the NSW approach.

CFS = 4x4 bushfire trucks , proban and construction workers helmets, only respond to bushfires and nothing else.

MFS = 4x4 pumpers, heavy pumpers, all appropriate training to fight fires in urban interface areas, training for urban stations who's bread and butter work funnily enough isn't bushfires anymore.

What I am getting at is the fact that most of the urban fringe brigades aren't responding to bushfires or grass fires anymore. The one's we are responding to are pissy little ones. My brigade actually responds to quite a number of urban fires mainly structure and car fires. So that suggests to me that whilst we still need rural fire training we should have a LOT more urban firefighting training.

Also I think we need to get out of this cap on BA operators for these urban stations, what a crock, being that we do more structure fires and urban related calls why on earth do we have a cap, like any brigade you don't know who will rock up, so we should allow anyone thats wants to do it the chance.

CFS needs to get serious, or get out of the urban game.

[rescue5271]

Pumperescue,why should CFS get out of the urban area??? we can work with the MFS and if we did get out of the urban area who is going to cover MFS area when they get a 3rd alarm house fire and pull in appliances from all over metro? We don't need to get out of the urban area we all(mfs/cfs/ses) all need to work as a team there is enough call outs for all of us and if the UFU and the government pulled there filtered heads in we could have staff and volunteer stations under one roof....I am not sure why this state is so dead set against volunteer and paid staff under one roof,works well in other state's...

[Cameron Yelland]

Just a query.  What extra urban training is there available?

Not saying there isnt any...just been racking my brain trying to work out what else there could be.  My head hurts now!


What is covered in the MFS recruit course?

[bajdas]

Just a query.  What extra urban training is there available?

Not saying there isnt any...just been racking my brain trying to work out what else there could be.  My head hurts now!

What is covered in the MFS recruit course?

I would say all emergency service people should complete a USAR CAT 1 course.

[firehawk]

I heard a rumor that CFS are actually considering building an Aerial appliance and running it as a state resource out of a centrally located brigade. Burnside was mentioned, (possibly instead of their new pumper???). It would respond to incidents around the city as well as to prolonged structure fires a bit further away like mount barker, murray bridge, gawler etc. 
I think its a good idea if its actually going ahead, but i would suggest a brigade with more industrial risks in area such as salisbury or happy valley.

[sesroadcrashrescue]

yeah that sounds great for one at a central station but it should be at a station that can respond in any direction to get to places out side the grater metro area 10 years ago there was a massive structure fire out here and had CFS and MFS from all ends of the state we had several skyjets etc here at one stage there were three here mabye four so its not just metro that need it 

[chook]

Andrew they are talking urban fire fighting, not USAR.
Yep combined stations -good idea
My guess is pumprescues dream is closer than he realises!
Its all in a name.
And yes we to had a fire many years ago that required resources from all over (spirit bond store).
Talked to a very knowledgable person (very experienced firey) & even he was concerned about what is stored within there! So yep there is more than just the metro area - we have more than scrub out here
cheers

[Sarge]

but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year?
i believe the is a need for more structural training

Of corse bearing in mind in most parts of rural sa there is no MFS so every structure fire is responded to by CFS not MFS, So yeah more structure training would be nice.

[Sarge]

I think we should adopt the NSW approach.

CFS = 4x4 bushfire trucks , proban and construction workers helmets, only respond to bushfires and nothing else.

That's fine if there are mets who are round the corner, Brigades outside suburbia (That's us in the sticks) don't have that luxury nor will we ever.