Author Topic: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday  (Read 15890 times)

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2007, 12:43:19 PM »
The media should not always be seen as the enemy

they have really bright lights on the cameras too which can be very useful on a dark night (beats the little CFS clip on torches!).

...and can be 'pain in the a...' when your eyes have adjusted to the night...then the camera floodlight switches on for a one minute filming....lost night vision for the next 10 minutes plus.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2007, 03:41:08 PM »
I have utilised the media spot lights on numerous occasions, to help light up my work area.... very helpful - I get my work area lit up, they get their footage / images!

Making contact with your local media, and providing them with appropriate & factual information / images (while adhering to CFS Sop's) can go a long way to promoting CFS in a good light, and presenting factual info, not ending up with quotes from the local "womble" about what was supposed to have happened.

I think we have to remember that the media should not be our enemies (although that can be difficult to deal with, when you are on the receiving end of undeserved bad publicity / poor reporting  - as we have seen in relation to the some of the info from the Wangary Inquest)

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

rescue5271

  • Guest
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2007, 07:08:27 AM »
Sure we need to work with the media but at the same time the media need to work with us....Correct PPE and fireground training......

Offline mack

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 570
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2007, 10:49:08 AM »
what's this got to do with "CFS facing lawsuit over black tuesday" ??

the media are going to turn up at any incident they feel like, and unless you help them out, they will put there own spin on the job.

re; black tuesday/coronial media coverage, of course the media are going to put there own spin on it and only publish the negatives... everyone loves to fling dirt at government organisations. i wouldnt listen to a word of it really.

Offline SA Firey

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,967
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2007, 01:44:47 PM »
MEDIA=
Malicious
Editorials
Damaging
Interests of
Affected Volunteers
Images are copyright

Offline Robert-Robert34

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,429
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2007, 01:51:53 PM »
MEDIA=
Malicious
Editorials
Damaging
Interests of
Affected Volunteers

Sounds like SA Firey watches cartoons like Kids Next Door and so on to think up that meaning for the Media :lol:
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline SA Firey

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,967
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2007, 03:33:02 PM »
MEDIA=
Malicious
Editorials
Damaging
Interests of
Affected Volunteers

Sounds like SA Firey watches cartoons like Kids Next Door and so on to think up that meaning for the Media :lol:
:roll:
Images are copyright

rescue5271

  • Guest
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2007, 03:40:43 PM »
It would be good for all if this was settled before it went back to court I am sure that those who where in the box's dont want to go over what was said or done again....

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2007, 09:31:00 PM »
It would be good for all if this was settled before it went back to court I am sure that those who where in the box's dont want to go over what was said or done again....

If they can settle out of court without handing over $$, maybe.
If settling out-of-court means handing over money, then I think it's a bad idea. 
All that will do is open the flood-gates for everybody who has ever had a fire damage their property to demand, and expect, compensation from the CFS for failure to contain it.  May as well set up a automatic teller in Waymouth St...

It also establishes a legal precedent that if a fire gets away from us, we are automatically to blame.  A a mate bleakly pointed out after a fatal MVA, we did NOT cause the idiot to crash into the tree, nor light the fire.  We just tried to help out afterwards to reduce the consequences of the original mishap. Sometimes there just isn't a happy ending.

As hard as it will be for everybody who has already been dragged through the mill, I think the CFS has to fight it, and support their volunteers through it.  One good thing - a court of law has rules of evidence & rules about how witnesses are treated.  The free-for-all-rip-them-to-pieces of the coroner's court isn't allowed.

cheers
AJ
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 01:47:46 PM by StopCallKing »
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2007, 08:16:33 AM »
Right on but remember its not like criminal court either.
As government organisations we can't be above the law, however in saying that the unique nature of our business needs to be taken into account when we are within the court system i.e OHS&W prosecutions, criminal matters, civil proceedings.
Hopefully the revised legislation will prevent the publically aired naming of individuals & the public witch hunt that occurred. E.g if I have to attend court on a matter relating to Emergency Service work, then I should not be named in the media until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that I  a) acted outside of established procedures & b) was criminally negligent - grounds for punishment under the F&ES act. If that is not proven then why should I be named?
Finally this episode proves two things 1) ESO managers at all levels need to manage, if they don't have the skills then they need to be trained. If they do have the skills but still can't manage then new managers need to be found.
2) Society is changing, we are blaming the media in this instance for the problems(and yet in another topic want to use them to highlight issues) when in fact they were handed the silver bullets by some of the individuals involved. The days are long gone when a bunch of blokes could jump on the back of an old Bedford (or Holden Ute), race out to a fire/rescue, do what they think is their best and go home job done. Even though the public don't seem to care, they scrutinise everything we do! This is something we have to get used to, its called cover thy a***.
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2008, 09:56:39 AM »
Right on but remember its not like criminal court either.
As government organisations we can't be above the law, however in saying that the unique nature of our business needs to be taken into account when we are within the court system i.e OHS&W prosecutions, criminal matters, civil proceedings.

Strangest coincidence.  NYE party I attended was introduced to a chap who is a crown solicitor, has been involved in the Wangary case.  He said at this stage, the state will be contesting this suit, pretty much for reasons I stated earlier.  They are hoping to reduce the exposure & demands on volunteers involved as much as possible.  Material from inquest -may- be enough to avoid calling some individuals as witnesses. Depends on how rough the plainiffs' lawyers want to play...
cheers
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

rescue5271

  • Guest
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2008, 01:33:23 PM »
Understand from somone in the know it will take up to 5 years in court to sort it all out.....

Offline CaptCom

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2008, 07:44:56 AM »
From someone who spent 7 days in the witness box, I agree with what you are all saying....we don't wish to be dragged back again BUT we also will not agree to any settlement out of court and are willing to fight to the end....

and we expect that it will take many years to resolve...by then, most of us will only have vague memories of what happened.

I have heard from a very reliable source that NOTHING from the coroner's court is taken into consideration for the class action....be interested to know who you were talking to at the NYE party chook...

Unfortunately, we are also breaking new ground as no other fire service has been here before....even the Canberra fire class action were waiting on our findings..

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2008, 05:38:25 PM »
Wasn't me at the NYE party - try Stopcall King.
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2008, 11:14:41 PM »
I have heard from a very reliable source that NOTHING from the coroner's court is taken into consideration for the class action....be interested to know who you were talking to at the NYE party chook...

Unfortunately, we are also breaking new ground as no other fire service has been here before....even the Canberra fire class action were waiting on our findings..

'Twas me, not chook.
Bloke I was talking to was short, mid-40's, light brown hair. Can't remember the name. Comment was in context that they'd be looking at what would be admissable in a class action, & hoping to use sworn statements from the inquest, particularly stuff that was queried & tested under the Inquest's broader rules of evidence/inquiry & found to be accurate & sound.   Note that he (& I) used the word "MAY" (with emphasis) not 'will' or 'can'.  Sounds like there might be a fair bit of (expensive) legal argument about The Rools before the slanging match proper begins...

7 days in the witness box at the inquest, eh.  That sucks, big time.  Only ever been to one inquest a long time ago when I was in SES. The various lawyers lined up to take shots at my Unit Controller, tried to put words in his mouth, made suggestions / accusations / etc about what he was doing & thinking.  Came away thinking that 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean might be a good start, but unsatisfying unless they were all breathing when chucked in.

cheers
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2008, 07:23:50 AM »
Spent a day locked in a room of with 100 lawyers at a conference. Came away feeling very dirty  :-D& with the realisation that out of the 100 only 2 were passionate about the subject in hand the rest were just happy to have a good old argument :wink:.
Mind you I think some on this forum would make very good lawyers (including myself? :roll:)
Remember though some of our current protections were the results of the laws of the time being tested by lawyers & the burden of proof is different in civil proceedings.
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline CaptCom

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2008, 07:52:36 AM »
I had 11 lawyers lined up against me and they did all of what you have previously witnessed....even yelling, pointing, trying to put words in our mouths and scrutinising everything we did....the whole process was very destructive and NOTHING good came from it...

and they are a bunch of unscrupulous (want to use the word pigs but will use)people who treat it as a game....one minute in court they are at each other and you, then they are down the cafe having a coffee together and laughing and slapping each other on the back....they are only in it for the money and kudos...

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2008, 02:21:30 PM »
Worked for a medium size law firm in Adelaide for three years....some partners are very good & some do not care....but their job is to support/protect their individual client, using whatever they can within the rules of the court.

Like the other forum discussion on media people, I would suggest don't judge all people in the profession the same.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2008, 05:51:54 PM »
...but their job is to support/protect their individual client, using whatever they can within the rules of the court.

And that covers it in a nutshell.  Everyone else is expendable, if doing so paints their client in a better light.

Interesting point about an employer assuming vicarious liability came out of a confrence my wife attended in the nursing game.  In a medical context, an employer's liability insurer's lawyer is there to protect their client (the employer) to reduce the insurer's expenses. Unless the policy has specific indemnity clauses including employees, the employee is not actually covered.  The insurer can only be relied upon to protect the employee to the extent that doing so benefits the insurer.

Anyone with more legal knowledge or hands-on experience than I care to comment about how it has worked with CFS assuming vicarious liability for volunteers as per the Act?  For example, did the CFS lawyers at the Wangary Inquest work to show that the people on the spot did their best within their experience & knowledge (i.e. were not personally negligent), and given the thin resources available ?  Or did they appear to be working to white-wash the CFS organisation, potentially at the expense of individuals ?

cheers

Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline CaptCom

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2008, 07:49:53 AM »
Many of us had individual lawyers to help protect us...and they were working in partnership with the Crown...

Most of the volunteers came out of it quite well in the Coroner's report....only a couple were criticised....But that's not to say that they were pr oven to be negligent.

From my experience, what we perceive can be very different from their views.

The laws of the Civil court are very different from the coroner's....hence why there is only a MAYBE that evidence provided in the coroner's will be admissible in the Civil action.

The only winners are the lawyers who line their pockets...and a long way to the finish line

and the comment re protecting your client is true and can be at all costs of others...we tried hard to not criticise other volunteers and their efforts - someones almost at our own expense.

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: CFS facing lawsuit over Black Tuesday
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2008, 11:41:39 AM »
Many of us had individual lawyers to help protect us...and they were working in partnership with the Crown...

Supplied by CFS? SAVFA?  or at own expense?

Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

 

anything