Grass fires from the crew deck

[CFS_Firey]

Following on from discussion in New 34P...

Coming from a hills brigade where we rarely attack a running grassfire (if ever), I'm not familiar with the requirements for running grassfire attack.  Can someone explain why 3 (or more) deck lines are needed for that?

[Zippy]

i would only think you would need Two...one for Inital hit, and 2nd for extinguishing the left over filtered.

[Cameron Yelland]

See photo below.

Used in flat areas, where grass fires can travel very quickly.  The first truck will go as fast as is safely possible to knock down the flank whilst the following trucks will be making sure there is nothing left alight, and the last truck should be off the truck making sure everything is completely blacked out.  Sometimes depending on the fire size there maybe 5 trucks in a line chasing the flank.  Theory being by the time the last truck comes past there will be nothing left alight.  Once the first truck is empty it pulls away and each truck takes a step up.  Its the most efficient way to round up a fire when the flank can be km's long.

Front hose knocks down the flame, taking the heat away.  The second hose, set to a powercone/fog takes out the flame completely (where possible) 1/2 on the black stuff 1/2 on the unburnt. 

Any questions?

[littlejohn]

Ideally you have three crew on the deck. One on each side, and a third to go where the work is (plus keep an eye on pump pressure, tank level & handle comms with the driver/OIC).

In some instances you're working on one side of the truck for some distance, say if the fire has a good head in open grass land and you're just working the flank. In that instance only two crew are really needed, as described by Cam above.

Other times you're needing to work on both sides of the truck. For instance, a fire is coming out of scrub into grassland. When you start chasing fingers and small spot fires, you can be forever alternating from side to side. Having an extra person to go where the work is needed can make quite a difference.

It is surprising how often that third person is used.

[CFS_Firey]

Ok, that makes sense...  Thanks

[bittenyakka]

Yeah i understand what the crew deck is for and how important it is for these running grass fires. However i would love to see some better medium so that hills brigades can use the space more efficiently. for example maybe a semi permanent Pod that can be removed when the truck leaves to go to a new brigade?

[rescue5271]

I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's?? The crew deck is by far the best way of fire attack and safety for those on the back,3 hose lines are good that way you are not moving from side to side and the 3rd person is also keeping a eye on you back.Grass fire's have and will over run appliances and will result in a burnover... If we look at CFA and NSWRFS they have 3/4 hose lines on the crew working deck.....I have been to mandy grass fire's over the years and i can tell you,you will use all those hoses from the rear and if your the first appliances on scene you will be working ya rear off till help arrives....If we also look at the grassland fire's in western Victoria last year there was a very big chnage in how they where attacked,due to the graa height,wind speed and fire spread they changed their thinking and for the first time in ages went on direct head attack of the fire.

Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...

[Robert-Robert34]

Bring back the mad rabbit as that was a good training tool for running grass fire attack from the crew deck 

[CFS_Firey]

Bill - I'm sure crew decks are very important for running grassfires, but here in the hills we very rarely get to do that.  It doesn't make much sense for us to be wasting all that space just for the odd running grassfire we come across when on a strike team.  Give me extra lockers any day.

[Cameron Yelland]

Bit hard to do a running grass fire up steep hills! lol

The hills brigades should have the option of an extra locker but then that creates another issue.  What extra gear would those brigades get?  Where would the extra funding come from?  What gear do the hills brigades require that us flat land brigades dont require?

[Zippy]

Rope Rescue, Hazmat, RCR, BA, etc, what ever you can think of...Time for a Palfinger on a 34P - 34P Pod Truck

[littlejohn]

Another point to highlight the fact that you can't have a 'one design suits all' approach. By the same token, custom designing a truck for each brigade & their needs would be pretty inefficient too. Finding a balance between the two extremes would be pretty challenging.

[rescue5271]

I understand to well what the HILL'S brigade's do, at the end of the day we have to use what we are given and then change it so that it fits into our area....

[6739264]

I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's??

...

Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...

Oddly enough, different Brigades do different kinds of work. Our friends in the hills are also lucky that they don't have huge fields of grass! Don't get so down and sour that those horrible hills brigades have all the hero air support!

Not to drag this off topic, and no doubt a more in depth discussion should take place elsewhere, but as much as people suggest you can't specialise for every Brigade (this is true) its also not hard to come up with a couple of designs for the different types of appliances to cater for their uses across the state. There are enough 'groups' of brigades that do the same work that this should be an achievable goal - its not a case of 100 different prototypes.

The hills brigades should have the option of an extra locker but then that creates another issue.  What extra gear would those brigades get?  Where would the extra funding come from?  What gear do the hills brigades require that us flat land brigades don't require?

It depends on what the Brigade that the appliance is stationed at is qualified in. Some brigades wouldn't have much more equipment to put on, others would have a heap. I know that we have far too many bits and pieces laying around the station that could use a home, from Tirfor's to Cribbing, Ground Monitors and Foam Gear, all that has been taken off the truck due to weight issues or to make way for gear that is more often used. In general it makes the truck more appealling to Brigades that have a large a mount of stowage and don't need the crew deck. More stowage room = better suited to carrying Hazmat and Rescue gear and being a one truck solution for some brigades.

[RescueHazmat]

I take it that some of you have not been to very large fast moving grass fire's?? The crew deck is by far the best way of fire attack and safety for those on the back,3 hose lines are good that way you are not moving from side to side and the 3rd person is also keeping a eye on you back.Grass fire's have and will over run appliances and will result in a burnover... If we look at CFA and NSWRFS they have 3/4 hose lines on the crew working deck.....I have been to mandy grass fire's over the years and i can tell you,you will use all those hoses from the rear and if your the first appliances on scene you will be working ya rear off till help arrives....If we also look at the grassland fire's in western Victoria last year there was a very big chnage in how they where attacked,due to the graa height,wind speed and fire spread they changed their thinking and for the first time in ages went on direct head attack of the fire.

Our friends in the hills are very lucky as they have air support very fast and with the sky crane this year they will have it all and good luck to them...

I challenge your two opening comments.

1) It will always depend on the fire, as to whether it is the "best" method. Sometimes a multitude of methods, or a total opposite tactic will best suit a fire.

2) I think being on the crew deck, of a moving appliance, at a fire, is one of the most Hazardous areas to be working in/on!..

3) The skycrane isnt everything.

4) This isnt VIC or NSW, nor is it the CFA or NSWRFS.. Funnily enough, those few hundred (or thousand) kilometres, does equate to a very different fuel load, climatic environment, terrain conditions (etc), and often a whole number of ways to fight fires..

[6739264]

I challenge your two opening comments.

1) It will always depend on the fire, as to whether it is the "best" method. Sometimes a multitude of methods, or a total opposite tactic will best suit a fire.

2) I think being on the crew deck, of a moving appliance, at a fire, is one of the most Hazardous areas to be working in/on!..

3) The skycrane isnt everything.

4) This isnt VIC or NSW, nor is it the CFA or NSWRFS.. Funnily enough, those few hundred (or thousand) kilometres, does equate to a very different fuel load, climatic environment, terrain conditions (etc), and often a whole number of ways to fight fires..

I challenge your four closing comments, all fires are similar in nature and can be fought from a textbook with a single 'best' method. It doesn't matter about geographical location, fuel loads, weather, winds, local topography, temperature, curing or the fact that it may be grass/scrub/house contents burning - it is all the same. I mean, it all pyrolyses!

Speaking of Vic and NSW, its about time we started backburning everything isn't it? It would save on trucks, we just need command cars with Firebugs

[RescueHazmat]

Being a smart arse again Numbers?.. Struggle to work you out sometimes..

You have only re-iterated my point. . - I don't believe for one minute that you would be naive enough to actually believe there is one single, "best"/ textbook method to fight a fire..

[6739264]

Being a smart filtered again Numbers?.. Struggle to work you out sometimes..

You have only re-iterated my point. . - I don't believe for one minute that you would be naive enough to actually believe there is one single, "best"/ textbook method to fight a fire..

Well it depends on how determined you are not to have to strike a second bell for the fire.

[RescueHazmat]

Meh, get the lads out.. Dump the house, transmit the box, strike a second, go 2 bells..

[6739264]

Meh, get the lads out.. Dump the house, transmit the box, strike a second, go 2 bells..

Bugger the 34P and this 'crew deck' thingymabob, wheres my converted HMMWV Brush Truck?

Who cares, lets take the Engine!

[SA Firey]

Every fire has its own traits and based on the "initial sizeup" determines the best method of attack.

Open grass paddock its easy to pinch off the flanks by chasing it and reducing the head size, a tried and trusted method for years, and ive shown others how it can work to your advantage.Local knowledge also helps.

[jaff]

"Every fire is different, but their all the same"...yeh man I get it now! 

[OMGWTF]

Hills brigades & Country Brigades???

What the he'll happened to Urban, Urban/Rural & Rural...

These are the stowages that brigades run [plus of course specialist resources, ie hazmat, rcr, etc] and they in theory determine the build of truck the brigade gets. {lets not forget CFS no longer seem to build an appliance with a suitable crew deck for rural though}

Im relatively sure most of you already realise this.......


Back on point slightly...

The crew decks are fantastic for those brigades that do fight fires on large open expanses... But almost every fire ive been to LOCALLY has been burning out of a gorge, through thick scrub, etc... Where your doing a hoselay and hoping to hell you stop it before it jumps the next gully, so no... not suitable for some areas, Id much rather have more room for better stowage.


Bill - im pretty sure you have 2 FW bombers permenantly stationed down at the mount over the FDS [whilst in contract] along with a spotter plane, and quite regularly get more than just the two, so lets not cry about air support, your doing better than region 4 and 3 .

[6739264]

Hills brigades & Country Brigades???

What the he'll happened to Urban, Urban/Rural & Rural...

You made the distinction in your post. We were talking about brigades in the sticks or *country* that have large, relatively flat expanses of grass/crops in which firefighting efforts cannot be conducted on the ground and need the speed of the truck to keep up. You then pointed out that all of your local fires are in Gorges... or in a *hilly* area, that don't use the Crew Deck, and rely more on a stationary fire attack, using hose lines off the sides of track/roads. Hence it was a reference to the local topography of a Brigades response area.

[jaff]

"Hence".... it's such a great word, it implies justification for your own words or actions, whilst stickin it up the other.......in a nice way of course