Author Topic: CFS alarm levels split from -->Re: Interesting Fire and Emergency Related Paging (Read 13666 times)

Zippy · « **on:** January 11, 2009, 04:18:50 PM »

Do they even know what Alarms are, or are they using the term "3rd alarm" just to make people scared? lol

Darius · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:05:57 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on January 11, 2009, 04:18:50 PM

Do they even know what Alarms are?

there is certainly much confusion (and I am not completely clear on it either). It's SOP 2.1 but I've heard many variations on what the levels actually mean. Generally it seems 3rd alarm means a 'whole of group response', which is not the way things (should) work of course (closest most appropriate and all that) and depends on things like how many brigades and appliances in the group.

Have a read of the SOP, it says initial response of 3rd alarm is 8 appliances, but then the following table says for rural incidents on a TFB it's 'strike team' in addition to the initial 4 appliances. I think it could be a lot clearer.

It also says "consideration to initial response of 3rd alarm resources for rural events reported on fire ban days".

Zippy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:01:31 PM »

i think Kangarilla would be trying to say 2nd alarm...4 appliances inital response..that makes more sense.

From the SOP, my understanding is:
0.5 Alarm 1 Appliance (mostly happens with CFS Alarm Calls and Tree downs?)
1st Alarm 2 Appliances (1 from two brigades)
2nd Alarm an Additional Appliance from 2 more brigades
3rd Alarm an Additional Appliance from 4 more brigades
4th Alarm additional appliances from Group Pre-determined Response Teams. (yeah, strike team is a term i hate.)
Or an additional appliance from another 4 brigades

4 Appliances to a Rural incident on TFB incidents sounds sufficent for the Inital Call (which really is a 1st Alarm).

But if the FDI = Epic Fail.....3rd alarm, i agree.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:19:05 PM »

Zippy's description matches what i read. The issue which for some is a problem is where the alarm is raised and and the brigades send more than 1 truck so we end up with a parking lot.

Zippy · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:29:47 PM »

Quote

brigades send more than 1 truck so we end up with a parking lot

Yeah, thats a real problem, need some system to put whatever excess trucks on standby pretty much where they are on the road and await further instructions (higher alarm or return to station) It doesnt take too long to happen. Unless you get forgotten about, then you should just snail ya way home i guess.

6739264 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:57:13 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on January 12, 2009, 01:01:31 PM

0.5 Alarm 1 Appliance (mostly happens with CFS Alarm Calls and Tree downs?)

If thats your standard for Structure Alarms in your group, you've got issues.

Between the SOP and the Tables it makes for a rather confusing read.

Why not just run an ever escalating alarm level?

Inital response - Will either be one truck (Tree Down, Assist Resident, etc) or straight to 1st Alarm
1st Alarm - 2 Appliances
2nd Alarm - 4 Appliances, GDO notified
3rd Alarm - 6 Appliances, GDO Attendence required
4th Alarm - 8 Appliances, RDO notified, consider strike teams for Rural jobs
Every subsequent alarm level, just add 2 appliances.

It shouldnt matter about the number of brigades involved, as on the fireground you worry about trucks as resources, not how many brigades are there. If you get on scene to a fire, and there are two trucks there, then requesting a 2nd Alarm gets you two more trucks. It should be a rigidly defined response protocol. This would allow an IC to know exactly what he is getting when he asks for an upgrade to an xx Alarm, but as Bittenyakka has suggested, it all goes to the dogs when brigades end up turning out everything they have, turning a Fixed Alarm call into a 3rd Alarm.

Having a rigid alarm response protocol that relies on the number of trucks also allows a direct comparison of responses to incidents, rather than having, for example, a 3rd Alarm house fire with 10 trucks, or a 3rd Alarm house fire with 6. It levels the playing field. Of course for rural jobs, you get to a point where you have multiple strike teams working and the notion of defined alarm levels for response is useless.

As it stands, the whole thing is a little confusing.

Zippy · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:04:14 PM »

Quote

0.5 Alarm 1 Appliance (mostly happens with CFS Alarm Calls and Tree downs?)

It used to happen, but how often did you used to commonly see a single brigade response to alarm calls??? ITs not just my group...its a common abroad problem.

Now im noticing a improving trend with Adelaide Fire's response procedures for CFS. and i think it starts with just a few of the operators doing it right and the others seeing the difference.

The way ive seen it normally work is

1st Alarm - 2 Appliances, Group officers pick and chose which ones to go to lol
2nd Alarm - 4 Appliances, GDO most probably attend.
3rd Alarm - 8 Appliances, RDO Advised and may attend.
4th Alarm - 12 Appliances, consider strike teams for Rural jobs

6739264 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:08:08 PM »

Quote from: Zippy on January 12, 2009, 02:04:14 PM

It used to happen, but how often did you used to commonly see a single brigade response to alarm calls??? ITs not just my group...its a common abroad problem.

Now im noticing a improving trend with Adelaide Fire's response procedures for CFS. and i think it starts with just a few of the operators doing it right and the others seeing the difference.

Can't say I remember seeing that much of it. Saw a bit of single group cars turning out to Fixed Alarms, but on the whole the Brigade responses were good. Don't get confused with places like Mt. Barker that can fulfill the 2 Appliance requirement without any outside help.

Zippy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:18:29 PM »

i think we clarified that a 1st alarm is two brigades, one per brigade? but i guess if your the primary brigade just roll another if ya wanna ey?

ive seen a lot of single brigade responses in the past...a lot of WFAM's still do it....but the general consistancy is improving to two brigade responses to ensure at least 1 brigade will arrive on scene promptly.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:29:58 PM »

i think it is supposed to work as each alarm = 2 appliances but that requires 2 stations which then send what ever they can roll.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:52:59 PM »

Quote from: bittenyakka on January 12, 2009, 02:29:58 PM

i think it is supposed to work as each alarm = 2 appliances but that requires 2 stations which then send what ever they can roll.

In my opinion, alarm levels shouldn't have anything to do with number of brigades responded, it should be based on number of appliances responded. If a single brigade can't supply enough appliances, then respond another brigade, but don't simply assume that it's 1 brigade per appliance required.

Quote from: 6739264 on January 12, 2009, 01:57:13 PM

Inital response - Will either be one truck (Tree Down, Assist Resident, etc) or straight to 1st Alarm

I believe a 1 truck response is referred to as a "Single appliance response". "Initial response" as you said, could be anything.

jaff · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:38:01 PM »

Maybe we just keep on sending the lot like some groups do and then respond SES for carparking logistics

pumprescue · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2009, 10:38:40 AM »

I can see the point of the primary brigade sending a couple appliances, but things like Mt Lofty group where every station seems to send everything no matter which end of the group it is still makes me wonder. Eg: why does Aldgate need to send both their trucks to a mva or car fire on the freeway, do people think, oh hey, what happens if there is a job in our patch, gee whiz, gonna take us a while to get back isn't it! The CFS still has that element of "I wanna go fight a fire, please can we take all our trucks no matter where the job is" Also don't give me the whole don't name names and don't dob people in talk, it happens, its wrong.

Alan (Big Al) · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2009, 10:54:42 AM »

That is something we are trying to integrate into our brigade because it has been a problem.
primary area we take both (if we have the crew)
outside of that the primary appliance responds and the other one only goes if the GDO or IC requests it.

Zippy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2009, 11:08:58 AM »

is there a common Appliance response procedure (SOP) for stations that have more than 1 appliance???

Primary it makes sense to send 2. Support send 1 unless specific Risk? Eg your required for water and its also inaccessable so send a 14 and 34. Pumper/4P's should be the last to go for Rural incidents...even newer 34's are becoming good asset protection appliances.

If its in the middle of two brigades...just send 1 until the most vaugest Sitrep occurs...you may even be able to run a 2nd appliance slowly in the direction, but not actually responding, till absolutely required.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2009, 12:30:47 PM »

pumprescue: I agree that over resourcing is silly, and makes us look like a bunch of idiots, but in the scenario you described, if the second appliance was required, I think it makes more sense to empty Aldgate station rather than respond another brigade. Especially in that area where the next brigade is only a couple of minutes away if they get another call.
(Just to reinforce the point, I don't agree with sending half the group to a reported car fire - I just disagree with responding yet another brigade if a closer one already has a crew ready to go).

pumprescue · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:16:00 PM »

Oh thats fine, sending the second truck from the second station, when asked, rather than turning out another brigade, but why do it just because you can, isn't that poor discipline.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:24:47 PM »

Agreed.

Pixie · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2009, 09:37:34 PM »

This sort of adds onto the STOP CALLS thread... but the way we usually work it is Primary Appliance rolls to incident, if enough crew for second truck, second truck rolls P1, on arrival, IC will (should) know which appliances are on the road, and approx ETA, and can either downgrade, or stop any resources which are not required.

This is all dependent in incident type, Ie. would not stop rural appliances going to grass fire just because stations pumper is also mobile, more so downgrade pumper P2, unless they will be able to gain access and effectively and safely fight the fire.

SA Firey · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2009, 03:00:13 PM »

Just to clarify something any reported fire at Kuitpo is an automatic 3rd alarm, and has been for years during the Fire Danger Season, back to when I was in Mt Barker Group.

The theory being the quicker resources get there, that it reduces the impact on the forest.

Most groups have set levels of alarm response for example a 1st Alarm in a brigades primary area is usually 2 appliances from the same station,(good if you have the crew) but dont forget to leave one person behind to do the comms

Responses are all about balance and this is whay some groups have a 2 brigade turnout to their jobs, at least you are likely to get one appliance mobile.If both brigades are mobile thats a bonus, and of course if you have the luxury of MFS coming as well you know you will get 4 appliances

Zippy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2009, 03:03:47 PM »

Cleland last night was a good example of a good pre-emptial response.

Greenhill and Burnside inital response
Stirling and Piccadilly secondary response
Aldgate tagged along somehow lol...

Enough appliances to survey the entire park.

Pipster · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:59:28 PM »

Aldgate went, as Stirling were already at a call, and did not have a rural appliance out & about, and asked Aldgate to respond initially, as the had a rural appliance out & about.

In the end, it was just lights reflecting in the low cloud....!!!!

Pip

6739264 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2009, 06:20:07 PM »

OK, so to bring the thread back on topic an add a little fact into it, and also to correct my early "It's confusing" post:

CFS Provides Response protocols, in writing, for:

Rural Fire
Rural Fire TFB
Structure Fire
RCR
Hazmat
Vehicle Fire
Special Service

They are very specific, and deal with incident response at an appliance level, rather that at a brigade level, as should be the case.

For example, a 2nd Alarm RCR has two more appliances, one being Rescue and one a normal appliance, as well as the DGO/GO/GDO. A 3rd Alarm Structure Fire gets you 4 more appliances, 2 CABA, 2 Normal as a minimum.

So, upon actually investigating what we are talking about, it turns out its NOT confusing at all and is all there in black and white.

big bronto · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2009, 10:35:19 AM »

Numbers that is so true...too all over the shop
My concerns are say for example factory fire in mount barker, on arrival going like stink with other factories under threat by CFS standards you go for a 3rd alarm B risk and get what a whole heap of rural trucks with no BA operators and could not pump to save themselves. Unfortunately the CFS does not have the response plans or vehicles to support this kind of job so i would be asking for specific appliances such as hahndorf, bridgewater, stirling pumpers with the addition of 203, 205 and possibly MFS pumps. You need to look at the job and because there is no CAD system to support the call just some guys in comms guessing who to send sometimes because they have no data from CFS regions you will need to ask for specific resources such as a skyjet or bronto to get the job done.

Alan (Big Al) · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2009, 11:53:26 AM »

Bridgewaters URP is only a 2000 lp/m pump anyway so same as a P truck.