Author Topic: NASTY NASTY  (Read 75677 times)

rescue5271

  • Guest
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2009, 06:58:15 PM »
CFS have made a good call by sending in more aircraft to this fire and its sad to read some of the  crap in the Advertiser about our slow responce to this fire and that CFS volunteers need or should be paid....How hard  is it in this day and age for the public  to come to terms that we still have members of the community who are willing,able and at the drop of a pager tone are able to rush to their aid.

I dont know about anyone else but Robert I am happy that my pager did not go off today  in the heat,wind and low R/H it would have been filtered hard to stop any large fast moving grass or forest fire...Lets all stay safe and come home....

Offline jaff

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2009, 07:38:51 PM »
Can see your point Tedster, it was a big call sending most of SA's aerial capability to this fire, but this risk would have been managed by swamping any out breaks here in MLR with strike team after strike team!.
You can only fight the fires you have and put measures in place for other eventualities and if push came to shove, a recall could of had the aircraft back in Adelaide in two hours
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2009, 07:43:11 PM »
yea its nasty by sound of it MFS apliances being responded..
So nasty infact, that SAMFS was the first service turned out to it!

Probably because it is MFS area.......

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline boredmatrix

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 644
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2009, 08:40:42 PM »
i can see your point as well mister teddy...I'm all for not going stupid on resources.......

.....and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo........

....BUT...

.....some of the biggest fires we've had in this state of the last few years have been over there for a reason...and no - I'm not knocking the local firey's!

and western approach road is wide...but will it stop a wind change (as predicted by the the 100% accurate BOM)  pushing the front back across it- straight into Lincoln South? (yes - I know it could prob do with a cleanout...but don't know if the coroner would see it that way....... :evil:)

pumprescue

  • Guest
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2009, 10:31:21 AM »
Mr Teddy, were you the IC for the wangary fire by any chance ?

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2009, 10:49:37 AM »
LOL
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2009, 11:19:04 AM »
i think Mister Teddy is trying to highlight the "Tunnel vision" approach to large fires.  BUT, it seemed the rest of the state was being managed well.

The CFS needs to be ready for Multiple Large Fires. maybe even TWO or THREE in the same region.

ARE YOU BUSHFIRE READY?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 11:26:28 AM by Zippy »

Offline Firefrog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 792
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2009, 11:34:29 AM »
You attack the fire you have not the one you might have. There are smart people that are fully aware of state resource requirements and risk planning. You know with some peoples attitudes CFS can't win, they either throw too few resources at something or too many. When will people say "good job CFS you made a great decision". If your area is burning and there are bombers sitting on the ground elsewhere I bet you guys say "send more bombers!!!!"

Why do we persist in second guessing a response when we are not part of the decision making process. 

misterteddy

  • Guest
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2009, 01:07:22 PM »
Mr Teddy, were you the IC for the wangary fire by any chance ?

obviously not.....we didnt get that right either  :wink:


Its very kind of you guys to take the shots at the guy asking the questions, querying the actions, and questioning the responses, as I said, I did expect it....but please remember that we can stand around patting ourselves on the back and telling ourselves how wonderful we are (or in this case how lucky we were)..... but thats not how u improve your response planning. Asking the hard questions, getting people to justify their actions (with fact, not emotion or heresay)- that drives accountability, which i know is not in the vernacular for most CFS people - its much easier to say.....awww, we're just volunteers we do what we can,  when it all gets too hard.

Hopefully we wont get to the point where we stop being able to question decisions openly as a means of stimulating learning and getting "reasoned" discussion. That would be a sad day.

Ahhh froggie....let's leave the poor minions in the dark, unquestioning the actions of those above them, happy in their serfdom to The Man - mate that attitude went out in the 50s. I think if you check the BFF1 OHS Unit and in fact every other piece of Safety related information in the Service...."if you see something you dont like.....speak up" If you view all of the above as review and analysis and questioning, instead of second guessing.....then your glass may become half full.

In another life I worked for a while with Peter Cosgrove.....a pretty smart man when it came to operations and planning, particularly in the nasty stuff. He would always remind his officers at the time - If you can't justify a plan to those that are going to undertake it - then u dont have a plan.....just an order


Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2009, 02:17:31 PM »
Well said mate! And if you believe the Mayor of the town the Skycrane saved the day again :wink:
And when is CFS going to acknowledge officially that they don't have thousands of volunteers? 15000 in one media statement prior to the fire, 11,000 in the report - why not tell the truth?
But Firefrog is right in one area - if everyone keeps bagging your organisation (including members of your own service) then you will always be in the wrong.
It's a fine balancing act between questioning & acknowledging!
The general may have been enlightened but a lot of his peers & subordinates would have questioned that logic (privately of course)& certainly didn't practice it.
Anyway at least the fire got people away from the american stats thread :-D
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2009, 02:35:25 PM »
Hear Hear Teddy and Chook!

American Volly's have it much tougher than us....But they still love to go above the call of duty :)


Interesting to note, Water sources for Helitaks were little to none. Even the Crane couldnt touch the Sea.  Floating Collar Dams pretty much.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 02:38:26 PM by Zippy »

Offline Robert-Robert34

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,429
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2009, 04:08:17 PM »
Quote
and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo

Sounds like you need to join the CFS matrix and gain valuable experience as well as good knowledge to help with your SAAS work  :-)
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline big bronto

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2009, 05:07:21 PM »
Mister teddy all i want to say is you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...

One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless, so they used them why they could, what ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucks and ground crew, you have all become too dependent on the aircraft, one day there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and go home. pull your heads in.

Offline Katrina

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2009, 08:27:13 PM »
Hey Al - is their house ok??
Katrina
Wattle Range
(Davi)

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2009, 08:49:39 PM »
Yeah they evacuated until late last night but no problems. Scared the crap outta the kids but good wake up call

Hopefully he'll clear his property properly now after seeing that.
Lt. Goolwa CFS

misterteddy

  • Guest
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2009, 10:00:40 PM »
as amended

Mister teddy all I want to say is (that)you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...

One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless, so they used them whywhen or while they could . What ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucksappliances and ground crew? You have all become too dependent on the aircraft,; one day there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and go home? Pull your heads in !

Grammar maketh the argument  :evil:

misterteddy

  • Guest
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2009, 10:12:13 PM »
here's an idea.....what is the criteria for shifting air resources?

Is it $$$risk, is it human risk, is it 1 asset per alarm upgrade, is it whim or personal choice? Is it who can get to the SARC or DSC first? Anyone know?

Maybe, just maybe, if you get caught in a situation like 2005 again, then u could argue that your criteria didnt allow for the situation and can be amended with research and experience, but not that your organisation failed to respond appropriately (assuming u follow your criteria that is).

If you have a logical and needs driven plan and it doesnt work, well then the plan was wrong. If you don't have a plan and it doesnt work.....then the organisation is wrong

Offline boredmatrix

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 644
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2009, 10:22:59 PM »
Quote
and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo

Sounds like you need to join the CFS matrix and gain valuable experience as well as good knowledge to help with your SAAS work  :-)

lol

had my fireman experience - still got the T shirt to prove it.....

Politics in SAAS is much easier to deal with.....and don't get me started on the ego's!!

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2009, 10:24:32 PM »
Incident controller > Regional Duty officer > DSC > SARC > Air Desk  > BOBS YOUR UNCLE.

Offline jaff

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2009, 11:09:26 PM »
Incident controller > Regional Duty officer > DSC > SARC > Air Desk  > BOBS YOUR UNCLE.


SNIP AND A TUCK, NOW BOB'S YOUR AUNTY :-D
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2009, 06:45:05 AM »
poor bob, bob bob bob!

Offline SA Firey

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,967
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2009, 02:44:41 PM »
The Ash Wednesday fire of 1983, a huge dust storm was also sweeping across Adelaide, which would have grounded a lot of aircraft had we had the aerial resources we have now.

Before we get lost in the media hype of "lets all hail the Skycrane" I and every other brigade within cooee of Mt Lofty Ranges were working our absolute butts off, trying to save what we could with the resources we had. I was working as OIC of a Bedford appliance from Gomersal, and the crackle of the VHF radio was the same all over.....HELP HELP MAYDAY we're out of water, not to mention the numerous burnovers that occurred made for chilling listening!!

The sight of 30-40 cement mixers all lined up in a row along Strathalbyn Rd, and refilling us with water, and unfortunately stones(which rendered many appliances useless I must add) after filling up goes to show we cannot control the situation all the time.

Sadly we have lost many volunteers, and are nowhere near the strength service  we once were, due to a variety of reasons.

When Stuart Ellis was still CO we had almsot 18,000 volunteers, now its under 10,000 :-o

The Port Lincoln fires so close to the city say one thing, that there has not been enough hazard reduction done by DEH and others to reduce the fuel load to prevent a high intensity fire from impacting the town.

In the 2000/01 Blue Mountains fires the fuel loads in a lot of the areas we worked in were 40-50 tonnes per hectare...what hope have us as crews got of controlling that, and the conditions were similar to Port Lincoln.

We will have another NASTY fire yet, the question is when!

 
Images are copyright

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »
Last official figures I saw was almost 16,000 members (but not 16,000 firefighters)

As for the 18,000 members previously, many of them were ladies auxiliary - who did catering and fundraising...with most brigades around the state having many auxiliary members.

A big clean up of membership records was done several years ago and the numbers dropped from around 18,000, to somewhere around 15,000.   At the time the cleanup was done, the actual number of people on the ground didn't really change much....they just removed names of people who were residing in the cemetery, the local nursing home, some other state etc etc.....

So when the CFS now talk of around 16,000 members, and around 11,000 firefighters.  The rest are Ops Support and cadets.    Although this is not a good indicator if available resources, as many Ops Support people are radio operators, IMT personnel etc, who are actively and directly participating in the firefighting effort....

As for cleaning up properties - over 75% of the land burnt in the Proper Bay fire was PRIVATE land...not DEH.    And having been in the exact area only two days before this fire, there were many many business owners and householders who had certainly not grasped the bushfire ready message, and had done nothing to prepare their properties against fire 

Despite what some high profile locals have said in the media, it is not the Native vegetation Act that stops people from cutting the grass on their properties!!

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline Bagyassfirey

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2009, 05:27:25 PM »
Anyone here actually go to the lincoln fire????

Offline CFSFirey661

  • Forum Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: NASTY NASTY
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2009, 06:41:37 PM »
I was on lincoln 34p the first CFS appliance on the fire ground and as far as i see it the response from lincoln base was very fast with the first appliance out the door within minutes of the page...I would like to thanks all the guys that took the time and came over on strike teams, if it wasn't for you guys lincoln would probably no longer exist. Also without the air assets we had we would have been in big trouble...with the combined efforts of SAMFS, DEH, SES, CFS appliances and air assetts we managed to save A LOT of lives, houses and sheds on tuesday so thanks guys

:)

 

anything