Author Topic: Too Many Chiefs (Read 13250 times)

Sarge · « **on:** February 22, 2009, 03:16:33 PM »

On more than one occasion we have had an incident were all 4 of our GO & DGOs have rocked up (bearing in mind we do actually have a group duty officer) which on one job did cause confusion with the crews as to who was actually in charge.

I'm curious if anyone else has had a similar problem and how it was rectified.

Darren · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2009, 03:28:49 PM »

Yes it happens, and we ignore all of them, most of the time you can't get on the radio as they all talk so much.

But seriously, the rule is that the group duty officer is the only one that responds, unless the others are asked for they stay away (most of the time).

What was the issue, had one of them identified themself as the IC ? If not, then thats an issue for starters.

Bagyassfirey · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »

our group has 3 DGO's and the GO and if the incident is in ther "patch" they go and all crews know that they will be there...

rescue5271 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:12:24 PM »

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job. our groupies will only roll to second alarm and up but will mann the base for a single brigade who has a job. works ok here...

SA Firey · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:28:19 PM »

Quote from: Darren on February 22, 2009, 03:28:49 PM

Yes it happens, and we ignore all of them, most of the time you can't get on the radio as they all talk so much.

But seriously, the rule is that the group duty officer is the only one that responds, unless the others are asked for they stay away (most of the time).

What was the issue, had one of them identified themself as the IC ? If not, then thats an issue for starters.

Also helps when they have the VHF radios ONNNNNNNNNNNNNN

bittenyakka · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:34:33 PM »

They can go to what they want when they want. However i would hope that they have their brains switched on and If they go they don;t automatically assume control, Follow SOPs and go to the required jobs eg entrapment or 2nd alarm or greater. But overall realize that they have a role in guiding the group which doesn't always mean telling everyone what to do.

Zippy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:50:58 PM »

i agree, i think we should try and abide by radio protocol more...

want to chat Vehicle to vehicle on grn? ask adelaide fire or your group base/station FIRST.

if not, use VHF...we should be using vhf a lot more.

a cfa crew went into burnover mode in kingslake...that appliance and the "rescue" appliance never talked to each other on the radio..instead, all transmissions between vicfire and the appilance were heard by the rescue appliance...and they made there way to rescue the burntover crew.

Radio protocol is something i like, and itll help reduce the number of "big chiefs" making decisions, and make a more effective chain of command team.

firegun · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:38:18 PM »

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job. our groupies will only roll to second alarm and up but will mann the base for a single brigade who has a job. works ok here...

I Agree Bill re the Groupies are not meant to attend fires etc under a second alarm and that the local brigade is in charge, but as you know within your region most groups work differently.
ie we have up to 3 groupies attend a single brigade response and almost always they will take command at every job they attend, thus not giving the local brigades a chance to develop skills etc.
No wonder, when the situation arises and no group people can attend it can be a bit chaotic and disjointed.

Zippy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:42:34 PM »

Quote from: firegun on February 22, 2009, 07:38:18 PM

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job. our groupies will only roll to second alarm and up but will mann the base for a single brigade who has a job. works ok here...

I Agree Bill re the Groupies are not meant to attend fires etc under a second alarm and that the local brigade is in charge, but as you know within your region most groups work differently.
ie we have up to 3 groupies attend a single brigade response and almost always they will take command at every job they attend, thus not giving the local brigades a chance to develop skills etc.
No wonder, when the situation arises and no group people can attend it can be a bit chaotic and disjointed.

sounds like a case of, if you werent in ash wednesday, ya dont count??

misterteddy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2009, 08:16:05 PM »

Quote from: firegun on February 22, 2009, 07:38:18 PM

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job. our groupies will only roll to second alarm and up but will mann the base for a single brigade who has a job. works ok here...

I Agree Bill re the Groupies are not meant to attend fires etc under a second alarm and that the local brigade is in charge, but as you know within your region most groups work differently.
ie we have up to 3 groupies attend a single brigade response and almost always they will take command at every job they attend, thus not giving the local brigades a chance to develop skills etc.
No wonder, when the situation arises and no group people can attend it can be a bit chaotic and disjointed.

hmm...interesting concept of ownership of an emergency incident.....i wonder what u get if you own the whole set?

The Group Officer (and therefore in the normal chain of command the Deputies) is responsible (remember that word) for ALL incidents in his Group, regardless of the level, size or complexity until he is relieved of that responsibility by someone higher (or lower depending on your perspective) in the foodchain. If they choose to attend an incident, then its a good thing....maybe they take charge sometimes, maybe they act as a safety or advisory number, but don't bitch and complain cos they g.a.f. enough to turn up.

Maybe if they keep turning up and taking charge its because they are tired of watching the train-wrecks unfolding in front of them

Pipster · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2009, 09:04:45 PM »

While some Group Officers create the train wreck.....

Pip

misterteddy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2009, 06:49:10 AM »

Quote from: Pipster on February 22, 2009, 09:04:45 PM

While some Group Officers create the train wreck.....

Pip

then the Group only has themselves to blame, dont sook to others, a Group will ALWAYS get the Group Officers it deserves...YOU (or they) VOTED THEM IN!

hint: remember that responsibility word i used above....applies equally up ...and down

Zippy · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:29:30 AM »

Quote from: misterteddy on February 23, 2009, 06:49:10 AM

Quote from: Pipster on February 22, 2009, 09:04:45 PM
While some Group Officers create the train wreck.....

Pip

then the Group only has themselves to blame, dont sook to others, a Group will ALWAYS get the Group Officers it deserves...YOU (or they) VOTED THEM IN!

hint: remember that responsibility word i used above....applies equally up ...and down

heh, i bet some of the best group officers out there, are ones that never got nominated or declined nominations

And probably are very successful Captains or Lieutenents.

jaff · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:31:04 AM »

Is it there is too many chiefs?, possibly on the fireground or at an incident?
Maybe those chiefs that attend need to make it clear that they are there to help out however the IC wants, not neccesarily to take over, but to use command vehicle as transport for current IC, to help mentor? or to be lunch boy/girl?

But I think we would all agree when it comes to the amount of paperwork and meetings involved with the position GO/DGO, 3-4 isnt too many. If it was all left to just one group officer they would be burnt out too quick!

firegun · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2009, 02:08:34 PM »

2 comments come to mind when thinking about GO and DGO attendance at incidents.
they are
Mentoring and
Succession planning.

Are they attending to do this ? in some cases i believe so but in some other cases i don't believe this is the case.

In my region we have some groups who this is defiantly not the case, eg the most senior person there is 99% of the time in charge. (i know they can but at "simple" one or two appliance jobs do they have to)

Several groups don't have rotational duty officers thus you get multiple group people responding both physically and on the radio.

I know some of the comments have been written re you voted them in etc and if you are not happy vote them out. This has been tried at one group i know of to the detriment of the people and brigades who supported them.

in some of the groups people are happy just to fight fires and leave every thing up to the GO to do.
this is fine for some but brigades need to look for future leaders as well as groups. what happens when it is tie for these Group/Brigade people to retire after 30 + years in a position if you don't practice Mentoring and succession planning. Who is capable of picking up the pieces, who will want to without some experience.

6739264 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2009, 11:26:07 AM »

Without delving into the ins and outs of succession planning and mentoring (something that is screwed in 90% of brigades and groups anyhow), lets just look at how things should be operating on the fireground.

You should have defined SOP's that dictate what types of incidents require the Group Duty Officer to turn out. Outside of this, it can be up to them if they wish to turn out, just for the sake of it. We all get bored sometimes. Anyway, once at the incident, the GDO doesn't have to take charge, we need to stop looking at helmet colour and look more at the tabbards that people are wearing. There should only be one person at an incident with the "Incident Controller" tabbard on. What ever colour helmet they may have, they are still the nominated incident controller. Everything starts and finishes with them.

If this is not the case, then its a major breakdown in fireground chain of command, and is very dangerous. There is nothing wrong with 100 red hats turning out to a job, so long as there is only one person who is IC and people, including their peers and seniors, respect the IC position and don't try to throw their $0.02 in.

firey666 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2009, 08:20:25 PM »

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job. our groupies will only roll to second alarm and up but will mann the base for a single brigade who has a job. works ok here...

I Agree Bill re the Groupies are not meant to attend fires etc under a second alarm and that the local brigade is in charge, but as you know within your region most groups work differently.
ie we have up to 3 groupies attend a single brigade response and almost always they will take command at every job they attend, thus not giving the local brigades a chance to develop skills etc.
No wonder, when the situation arises and no group people can attend it can be a bit chaotic and disjointed. rolleyes

Bill one thinks you have been spoilt, that will change with the right person in the job.
You all think you have problems,Biggest group in the state. try five, 1 GO and 4 DGO's who turn up to whatever they like. Have tried to have them voted out (no luck so far)Issue is brigades are mostly farmers and have there machinery serviced by the group officer.
have lodged complaints with the region (no luck there either). Basically told get back in box and shut up.
How the hell do you fix that.

Darren · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2009, 09:31:07 PM »

I have heard they walk into meetings in their pecking order, GO followed by the DGO's.

Regions are weak, although the new RC1 isn't taking any crap

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2009, 09:20:17 AM »

Quote from: firey666 on February 25, 2009, 08:20:25 PM

The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job.

Where does it say GO's mustn't attend incidents < 2nd alarm? I thought there were only guidelines as to when they should attend, not when they shouldn't...

Zippy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2009, 09:24:15 AM »

Its a Common Sense Rule i think.

Id like to see Group Duty officers "Respond" to as many incidents as possible as Support role....as simple as Manning there group car and the radio for doing communications for the simplest of jobs. they do not have to actually attend the scene unless requested.

firey666 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:50:13 PM »

Darren

Yep the pecking order works (seen it for my own eye's)You know theres trouble in the camp when it occurs. to be fair, one, has been trying to make changes.
This one pretty much has the support now of nearly half of the group, that ain't enough so the circus go's on.
As for the region, I have seen three regional commanders in the full time role, all of whom have said they would sort it out. The circus go's on. Region couldn't even sort out two kindy kids fighting over fruit.

misterteddy · « **Reply #21 on:** February 26, 2009, 06:40:18 PM »

Quote from: firey666 on February 26, 2009, 01:50:13 PM

Darren

Yep the pecking order works (seen it for my own eye's)You know theres trouble in the camp when it occurs. to be fair, one, has been trying to make changes.
This one pretty much has the support now of nearly half of the group, that ain't enough so the circus go's on.
As for the region, I have seen three regional commanders in the full time role, all of whom have said they would sort it out. The circus go's on. Region couldn't even sort out two kindy kids fighting over fruit.

honestly....why should they....u guys cant sort out ur own Group, then put up with it. No-one is gonna accept an imposed solution from Region, stand up for urselves and take responsibility....and if it isnt getting up time after time....then its because enough other people think it works....and maybe ur on the wrong side - thats the thing about a democracy..

boredmatrix · « **Reply #22 on:** February 26, 2009, 07:13:43 PM »

Quote from: CFS_Firey on February 26, 2009, 09:20:17 AM

Quote from: firey666 on February 25, 2009, 08:20:25 PM
The groupies are not ment to go to any fire/incident that is under a second alarm and at all times the local brigade is still in charge of the job.

Where does it say GO's mustn't attend incidents < 2nd alarm? I thought there were only guidelines as to when they should attend, not when they shouldn't...

Makes no difference what ESO this applies to...

...whenever something sounds interesting, managers bid for the work - turn up and just turn the job into a shambles when they try and stick their nose in suggesting that the paramedics "do it my way...." - and then wonder why people talk behind their backs!

again, it's not all managers who do this, but there are a few around who need to work out whether they really want an office job in their attempt to climb the corporate ladder - or be on the road! Especially those who've been in the job 5 minutes!!

firey666 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2009, 10:23:13 AM »

honestly....why should they....u guys cant sort out ur own Group, then put up with it. No-one is gonna accept an imposed solution from Region, stand up for urselves and take responsibility....and if it isnt getting up time after time....then its because enough other people think it works....and maybe ur on the wrong side - thats the thing about a democracy.. Misterteddy thanks for your thoughts.

Try as we do, Stand up as we do, fight for some basic standards as we do, follow SOP as we do, and continue to be overrun by the group.
Half the group follow as this is all they want, they are farmers interested in protecting there own patch and not interested once it reaches their fence. Brigades that only attend the AGM every year, They dont even train. somebody may drive the truck from time to time, want a hand in a close by area and they dont even respond to page.
When you have this attitude out weighing the urban/ Rural brigades whats the answer. Become marked and tagged as a stirrer as we have. and all because we want to be able to develope our officers. Give them a go at running a job.
Where ever you are must be nice.

bajdas · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2009, 10:41:16 AM »

Quote from: firey666 on February 27, 2009, 10:23:13 AM

honestly....why should they....u guys cant sort out ur own Group, then put up with it. No-one is gonna accept an imposed solution from Region, stand up for urselves and take responsibility....and if it isnt getting up time after time....then its because enough other people think it works....and maybe ur on the wrong side - thats the thing about a democracy.. Misterteddy thanks for your thoughts.

Try as we do, Stand up as we do, fight for some basic standards as we do, follow SOP as we do, and continue to be overrun by the group.
Half the group follow as this is all they want, they are farmers interested in protecting there own patch and not interested once it reaches their fence. Brigades that only attend the AGM every year, They dont even train. somebody may drive the truck from time to time, want a hand in a close by area and they dont even respond to page.
When you have this attitude out weighing the urban/ Rural brigades whats the answer. Become marked and tagged as a stirrer as we have. and all because we want to be able to develope our officers. Give them a go at running a job.
Where ever you are must be nice.

Went through a process similar & found that a lot of volunteers did not care about the politics or the ability to make things better. Some preferred to winge about the issues, some did not care. Majority just want to train & do the incident to assist the community. Nothing else which is fine (I learnt to accept this too late).

The worst are the wingers that will not do anything because they could loose opportunities for training/incidents/etc. Be careful, they will make the bullet & expect you to fire it while they act innocent.

This happened to a person who had 'code of conduct' applied to him.

At the end I lost opportunities big time & got a big headache banging my head on the brick wall. But my conscience is good & some appreciated the efforts.

Author Topic: Too Many Chiefs (Read 13250 times)

Darren

rescue5271

misterteddy

misterteddy

Darren

misterteddy