SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: littlejohn on March 08, 2008, 04:41:06 PM
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Or is there more and more criticism on this forum lately?
People read posts with their 'angry eyes' on - comments are construed as negative or critical, often regardless of how they may be intended. Responses are all too often argumentative or taking a superior tone.
The pager threads seem to have turned in to 'post an odd message, and pick the heck out of it'.
People love to analyse a situation based on what seems to be bugger all information. No one gets the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Anyone appearing to do something slightly odd gets essentially ridiculed as incompetent, stupid, or both. Regardless of whether they're a member of this forum or not.
Has my perspective changed of late, or have we all turned in to a pack of whinging, arrogant twits??
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agreed, multiple people are sensing this, lets improve the quailty of discussion.
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I agree on the surface but I believe it is deeper than that.
SAFF has 625 members and CFS had ~ 15000 (AS most of the discussion is about CFS I will leave MFS out of the equation.)
now of the 625 members of SAFF about 300 have ever posted and about 100 of those 300 are really regular. Now I'd take a punt and say that most of those 100 are from brigades less than an hours drive from Adelaide city. Which means that a large proportion of posts is going to have a metro fringe bias. (and it shows) SO as long as everyone who joins and enters into a discussion realizes that what you post will be largely viewed through these eyes (and i have been caught out by this) you should be fine.
Note 100 or so members from similar areas saying things about an organisation of 15000 over a huge area will never be a real representation of the WHOLE service.
end rant
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This forums has been a hot bed of idiots for as long as I can remember. There is a difference between picking a page for instance and commenting "This is an odd response" and seeing a page and getting into a big whine about how the 'correct' service wasn't notified, or that SAAS let the system down or blah blah blah.
I totally agree that the level od discussion needs to get to a higher plane on these boards, and I have tried to start some discussion worthy topics. Sadly they either get railroaded by some of the SES boys here or have CFS members just being stupid with topics.
Cases in point being the 'Rescuing the Rescuers topic' where an attempt at good firefighting discussion got turned into "SES ARE RESCUE CALL US" and hence went down the toilet, as well as the "CFS Aerials" thread got hijacked by idiots suggesting that their small town needed and aerial because of a concrete silo or a two storey house.
So many threads that appear to be decent get sidetracked by idiotic suggestions by people who don't think think through or apply a small amount of logic to things. If you've got nothing constructive to add or are only going to point out that your service is better, DON'T BOTHER!
(I know, don't mention my attitude to Seafood)
Bittenyakka, you make good point, but of the 625 that are members, the 300 that post and the 100 that are semi regular, there are only a small handful ~20 that really appear to know what they are talking about. This is a decent representation of the service I think. We have our busy brigade members here that do oodles of minor calls, our not so busy members where every job is a decent going one and our poor cousins from the bush that are the heart of the CFS, and certainly put the Country in Country Fire Service.
Just because a brigade is within an hour drive of the city, doesn't mean much about how competent they are. I do agree with the dominant view being from the city, and I for one and certainly at fault for that. As I have said quite often, I don't have any faith in the Metro SES units, yet I know that the country ones are very good at what they do. This is almost the opposite of the skills of CFS stations.
In short, lets not try to torpedo discussions totally with bullshit. The odd dig here and there is fine, but my god do some people take this site and life in general FAR too seriously.
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Numbers you mentioned idiots & versions of a fair few times, I agree with the comments previous to yours that the people who post on this forum do not represent the majority of any of the services.
I'm sorry that any conversation that includes the word rescue raises my interest, but is viewed by you as hijacked! All I offered was a short term fix but as usual it degenerated from there into a slanging match. And yet any topic which involves our core skills is commented on infinitum, usually in a derogatory way!
I agree with arrogant, not sure about twits though!
So yep I agree the conversations are diminishing in quality & quantity - but what do you do?
Anyway at the end of the day it doesn't really matter does it?
cheers
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Has my perspective changed of late, or have we all turned in to a pack of whinging, arrogant twits??
Is your name Kevin Foley too ? ;-)
It was like this in the beginning. If anything, it was worse then than now. I stopped reading it about a month after the SAFF was opened due to the poor standard of thought & thin skins. Now.... it has its good days & its bad days. The good days mostly outweigh the bad.
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Do you guys and girls even want this site to continue? Serious question.
This site is run at a cost to personal finance and time. If it's not serving the people it was created to help then it will be gone in a blink of an eye.
We have always wanted this site to be self regulating and free from over the top moderation. We saw a site that had a good sense of community and where emergency practitioners of all persuasions could meet online and chat.
If it is not what it should be please let me know and the site will end.
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Wipe all the current threads start afresh with the ozfire.org rule of no criticism...that might make this site worth visiting, that and/or take a leaf out of cfastream.info 's book ???
Whoevers personal expense this site is might be saved if u host it on something like pro boards....which is free.....
Just forward safirefighter.com to the address of the new forum or if you don't want to spare that expense set up a dynamic DNS account and web hop that to the forum..... It would be nice to start over, mostly this site consists of overdone criticism..I don't exempt my self from making that criticism...but every so often some wonderfully true things are said and they make the site bearable... This may well be time to kill this thing off I've talked to fellow volunteers about it and indeed it has been referred to as h.ell on the internet..... :(
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Easy.
Dont allow people to hide behind alias names. Everyone must display their real name, service & brigade.
Have a strike system where people get three warnings and then are booted from the site.
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That might work but it doesn't make up for all the dumb things that have been said all ready....maybe...
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Fire frog despite some bad stuff on the whole I've personally gain some very valuable information so I guess one of the stated aims has been achieved.
I think its worthwhile keep up the good work!
Ken Fowler Berri State Emergency Service
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I swear I had already replied to this topic recently... oh well take two:
We have always wanted this site to be self regulating and free from over the top moderation.
Mate, no offense, but we can't say He11 here without it being filtered... If thats not over the top I don't know what is.
As far as introducing a Ozfire type, zero criticism policy, I strongly disagree. There are times and matters on which we can all have differing opinions and there are times when occurrences should be criticized or a "Why did this happen" is warranted.
Otherwise we end up living in a small disillusioned world, where we think the way we do things is the best.
As far as having a requirement for name/service/brigade, I can't say I agree but at the same time, it would make for interesting discussion...
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I swear I had already replied to this topic recently... oh well take two:
We have always wanted this site to be self regulating and free from over the top moderation.
Mate, no offense, but we can't say He11 here without it being filtered... If thats not over the top I don't know what is.
As far as introducing a Ozfire type, zero criticism policy, I strongly disagree. There are times and matters on which we can all have differing opinions and there are times when occurrences should be criticized or a "Why did this happen" is warranted.
Otherwise we end up living in a small disillusioned world, where we think the way we do things is the best.
As far as having a requirement for name/service/brigade, I can't say I agree but at the same time, it would make for interesting discussion...
Just so you know the swearing filter is not a moderation attempt. It is designed wholly and solely to ensure a safe internet site for kids and all types of people. The no swearing rule is to enhance simple courtesy.
You could liken it to going out with family, you choose not to swear because there are young people around or your mum/wife whoever.
Same applies here, you don't know the age or sensibilities of people who read so don't swear.
It's not difficult to understand is it?
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It's not difficult to understand is it?
The filter is fine, that was not my point. It was the extent of the filter.
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Lets not kid ourselves , every service sometime or another needs a reality check , so when and if your turn is up ,deal with it. A full and frank discussion between commited people can only be a good thing , it helps to dispell untruths and rumours , we can all improve our service providing we use this site as a tool for self/service evaluation , I have and Im excellent!!!!! :-D
Cheers Jaff
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:-D hear hear!
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(I know, don't mention my attitude to Seafood)
Whats the pun behind seafood, apart from actually sounding the same?? Is there any intelligent meaning to it or is it just the best you could come up with......
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I reckon it's from your regular station radio operator (if she's still there) when she says seaford it's sounds a bit like seafood. Well it does to me anyhow :-)
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It's not difficult to understand is it?
The filter is fine, that was not my point. It was the extent of the filter.
Lines in sand hard to draw one :-P
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I now log on to cfastream more regularly than I check on here, and I don't even live in or like Victoria. It's just that the discussion on there is much more mature and doesn't always descend into a slinging match like it does on here. They also discuss far more interesting fire fighting topics and there is a lot more people on there, you don't only get the same 10 opinions on everything.
I agree that for sensible discussion to occur you need to identify who you are, there is a lot of hiding behind aliases on here that means people can say whatever they like without any retribution.
If that fails you can always go back to the SACFS Yahoogroup http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SACFS/ (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SACFS/) that was started years ago and has over 400 members on it, it is still going and actually has some reasonable discussion on it occasionally.
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I agree with Matt & Camo people need to stop hiding behind aliases, if people not using there real names believe there opinions and criticisms are so correct and valid then they shouldn't be afraid to show there true name.
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okay so who are you then jasec and what bridade? I already know who compoo is and I think everyone know's whose brigade you belong to I'm Katrina at Wattle Range
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im jason carroll from f-ing hot today roxby, the only reason i put jasec is because thats what everyones calls me, there was also a topic about everyone introducing themselves, i think it was called introductions???
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Im jason carroll from f-ing hot today Roxby, the only reason I put jasec is because thats what everyones calls me, there was also a topic about everyone introducing themselves, I think it was called introductions???
DAMN HOT REAL HOT :-o
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Is it possible to lock all the threads out to people who don't have a login?
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:evil:
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The success of this site is really dependant on the user.
If we continue to be negative and full of nit picking and criticism it will close. If the community can grow up and start to discuss things in a mature and fun way then perhaps the site will live on.
We have the web space available to have much more image sharing and great discussion about the positives in emergency response.
We should be sharing all the good stuff along with discussing the occasional negatives.
Time for a change in attitude. 8-)
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Wipe all the current threads start afresh with the ozfire.org rule of no criticism...
unless you're one of the "in" gang. Personally I reckon ozfire.org is much worse than here due to the double standards of the mods (if you're a buddy of theirs you can post whatever you like in breach of the "rules" about no criticism).
On here, I would like to see slightly more moderation (not talking about the braindead swearing filter) whereby obvious trolls and personal attacks etc are deleted. Yes you would hope self-moderation would work but clearly it's not. I would also like to see facts posted not rumours-and-speculation-posing-as-facts.
You can try the "no anonymous nicknames" thing but unless you enforce it it's not going to work (I notice you haven't announced yourself firefrog although perhaps you're like me, people that need to, know who I am).
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People need to be a little more open to those that are trying to use the site to broaden their knowledge. Yes the information is dubious at times, and this cannot really be avoided. The aim is to educate those who either do not know or may be on the wrong path.
With all that in mind, i can say some of the more directed posts have been met with some fantastic replies in the last couple of weeks. Well worded, thought out and to the point. Whilst maintaining the dignity the forums seek.
Maybe we should look at why the majority of our members dont post. Some may be personal, but i would suspect it maybe due to the attitudes some of our more regular posters. Tribalism is interesting.
Be you paid or volunteer of whatever level, we need to be more welcoming and inviting. Whilst maintaining an open mind and portraying an open attitude.
Personally I thank firefrog for the time and effort he puts into this site. Whilst i dont post overly often, its provided me with an open place to vent on occasions, gather opinions, and certainly got me thinking about some stuff i wouldnt have otherwise considered.
There is always new stuff for people to learn and consider, treat questions with this manner and we will get a much more value packed site yet!
Cheers
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unless you're one of the "in" gang. Personally I reckon ozfire.org is much worse than here due to the double standards of the mods (if you're a buddy of theirs you can post whatever you like in breach of the "rules" about no criticism).
Ozfire is great for the pictures. The whole MFB circlejerk is a little off putting at times. I swear that some of the regulars on ozfire are more than a little special. I much prefer things here, but more pictures and informed discussion would be nice.
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Hi guys at the risk of opening myself up to a barrage I'd like to point out some points for consideration. I do so not to start an ‘us’ or ‘them’ battle, but feel if Ozfire is going to be criticised for the way it runs or some of it’s members slagged off at then surely a right of reply on some matters is warranted.
unless you're one of the "in" gang. Personally I reckon ozfire.org is much worse than here due to the double standards of the mods (if you're a buddy of theirs you can post whatever you like in breach of the "rules" about no criticism).
There is no 'in' gang. The reality is anyone who can bring something to the site that is within the spirit of the site is welcome. When you touch on certain areas that Ozfire does not want action may be taken.
As for the ‘if you’re a buddy of theirs....” comment. I can assure you it is wrong. In my time I have removed comments /posts from people I know (quite well actually) as its not in the spirit of the site or in breach of the rules. Maybe some things might slip through that you feel breach the rules, but unless you want to pay us what our current employment does we can’t sit at the site all day monitoring it.
Ozfire is great for the pictures
Which most seem to forget is what Ozfire is really about and why the good Doctor from South Oz created it. It was never about critiquing procedures. There are other sites for that, so honestly how many sites do you need to get into the political issues or ones to argue issues and procedures? Is it really that much of Ozfire to request that those topics be taken to those other sites and to leave Ozfire about what it has always been about?
The whole MFB circlejerk is a little off putting at times. I swear that some of the regulars on ozfire are more than a little special.
I constantly hear about this whole MFB slant, and maybe it's true, but who is at fault for that? Those who chose to contribute in a manner accepted on the site and who have an interest in the MFB?
If you’re aggrieved by this may I suggest you actually do something about it and bring something to the site that is within it purpose and relevant to the service of your interest. We have numerous contributors from other States, with SA being close to second on Victorian issues in my opinion.
And seriously let’s not start slagging off at members of sites. Who knows I may be of the opinion or information regarding a few individuals on this site that are serious concerns. It does not mean I am going to go back to Ozfire and slag off about them does it.
As for the criticism of procedures and practises not being permitted, well again that is not at all why the site was started and as much as you might not like it Ozfire and its creator has their reasons for not permitting nor wanting it.
A fair while back when we were still on the yahoogroups based system we had some unbelievable fights amongst members that got very much out of hand.
Then we also had people making ill-informed comments on matters because of something they saw in an image. Sadly this meant some folk on the fire-ground went to great lengths to make things a little difficult next time because they had been judged (incorrectly in numerous instances) because of what someone’s perception of how an event went.
I’ll give you an example. We had a NSW member post an image of an event, in it was an SO in the background, he did not have on something members made assumptions about and commented he should etc etc. Well that poor SO got a few questions thrown at him as a result of what was said on Ozfire. In the end it turns out the images were shown out of sequence of the way they were taken, and the poor SO had his professionalism questioned unjustly when the reality was he did indeed have on proper PPC when he should and when it counted. But he came away feeling like ****. That is simply not what Ozfire is about and it’s the last thing we want to do is have FF’s (you guys included) come away having your professionalism and abilities being called into question because of an image shown.
Like I said there are other sites around for that to happen or where it’s accepted.
I'm sure your Admin and Mods here understand some of what I have touched on hope I've provided some information that maybe some making comments did not actually realise. :-)
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Fair comments :-)
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There is no 'in' gang. The reality is anyone who can bring something to the site that is within the spirit of the site is welcome. When you touch on certain areas that Ozfire does not want action may be taken.
There really is an in gang. Especially with regard to harmless baiting between friends, its very obvious when its amongst the MFB crew, it accepted. When the SA boys start a bit of fun poking, it all gets shut down under the "Site rules".
I constantly hear about this whole MFB slant, and maybe it's true, but who is at fault for that? Those who chose to contribute in a manner accepted on the site and who have an interest in the MFB?
If you’re aggrieved by this may I suggest you actually do something about it and bring something to the site that is within it purpose and relevant to the service of your interest. We have numerous contributors from other States, with SA being close to second on Victorian issues in my opinion.
The problem here is that there are numerous threads with photos and info of other services, but they fall by the wayside in favour of the MFB angled threads. The place may as well be called MFBFire. I know that without an active community from SA its hard to counter the huge MFB/CFA presence.
As for my comments about some of the members being special, that was more to do with their love of fire trucks. I love my firetrucks as much as the next bloke, but some of those MFB and Victorian boys take it to the next level...
I like ozfire, and do use it for the photos. As for the example of the SO and the action taken against him, that is ridiculous and I totally agree that that shouldn't happen.
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well i am glad to hear a real reason of the rules on ozfire and if rules do prevent problems then they are sally a good thing
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There really is an in gang. Especially with regard to harmless baiting between friends, its very obvious when its amongst the MFB crew, it accepted. When the SA boys start a bit of fun poking, it all gets shut down under the "Site rules".
There is no 'in' gang in the manner who alledge, yes there are those that are more active in the site, who know each other, and are somewhat active in the Fire fighting community on various levels, but that is the same for the SA Crew. Our gang is just bigger than yours! :evil: (Joke)
I can assure you that certain comments /posts amongst the Vic Crew have indeed wound up removed/edited. Just the same as they have for the SA Crew. Just as I can assure you that there have been certain comments slip by for both.
Also please keep in mind you'e not privvy to Emails/PM's we get as Admin. I know there have been instances that comments we took as a bit of harmless joking and the like amongst some have in turn been velied sniping over internal matters we weren't aware of, thus then having them removed. Not always, but has happened.
Also keep in mind, we can't get it right all the time, and if we do goof, I'd hope people are rational enough to understand why Admin / Mods took the action they did
given the information available at the time.
The problem here is that there are numerous threads with photos and info of other services, but they fall by the wayside in favour of the MFB angled threads. The place may as well be called MFBFire. I know that without an active community from SA its hard to counter the huge MFB/CFA presence
So what do we do? Because one service is limited in those that partake, we penalise others and place a limit on the number of topics that can be raised in regards to their interests? Not feasible really.
The SA Crew has a very active movement, this site is evidence of that, it just depends how you particpate and if you will do so in the accepted manner.
MFBFire? Lets make something clear, the idea of the site come from a South Oz chap, and it was called Ozfire. It is not really anyones fault that one state based element has greater contribution given that we all started on a level footing or that there are more contributing to a certain states subjects.
We do try and cater for all. Did you notice that with the success of the MFB BRT Watch Thread we made similar sticky topics for all others when members from those relevant states took the time to do a similar thread.
Also one of the things I've noted over recent months is that the SA Crew are contributing more images and more news and banter, which is great. So what will make you happy? If SA Crew members post more and more, surpassing the Victorian slant, but then what do we do if QLD Members complain about the SA slant? The old 'where do we draw the line in the sand?' comment.
As for my comments about some of the members being special, that was more to do with their love of fire trucks. I love my firetrucks as much as the next bloke, but some of those MFB and Victorian boys take it to the next level...
So? That is in part what the site was created for? If you don't like a thread based around Victorian matters you have the option of not reading it. Three blokes I know who have a range of fire trucks are all originally SA Crew, that's taking it to whole new level in my opinion. But then again I don't blame them or see it as a negative. LOL.
As for the SO matter from NSW, yeah sadly that is only one of several events I know of.
I even had a LFF cop grief over something someone saw in an image of mine. And it was simply because what some saw as a few innocent comments about procedure were made and left a bitter taste in someones mouth. Perception and assumptions can lead people to the wrong conclusion in a lot of instances.
It is good that you like elements of the site, maybe oneday someone will find the ultimate solution requiring little moderation, minimal chance of backlash from agencies, and accepted equal information levels.
:-)
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unless you're one of the "in" gang. Personally I reckon ozfire.org is much worse than here due to the double standards of the mods (if you're a buddy of theirs you can post whatever you like in breach of the "rules" about no criticism).
There is no 'in' gang. The reality is anyone who can bring something to the site that is within the spirit of the site is welcome. When you touch on certain areas that Ozfire does not want action may be taken. [..etc...]
I have no beef with the "no criticism" rule - in fact I support it. What I do object to is as I said before: if you're in the "in crowd" you can post whatever you like, sometimes criticism of something shown in a photo or sometimes just plain pointless rabbiting/chat back and forward. I don't know about the Vic/SA thing you talk about, some of the "in crowd" are SA people.
You are apparently a mod on ozfire and you say there is no "in crowd", I say there obviously is (and am far from the only one to perceive that) so I suggest you should be taking another look at things.
I used to post photos there but got fed up with it. I occasionally look at the photos still but do not contribute anymore. I will post them here or to Pip/Ashes for the promo unit. That's all I intend to say on ozfire.
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You are apparently a mod on ozfire and you say there is no "in crowd", I say there obviously is (and am far from the only one to perceive that) so I suggest you should be taking another look at things.
There is no apparently. I am. (all be it limited now due to my new obligation recently made to a certain agency).
Yes you're not the only one to have that perception. But perception is not fact though, despite one groups emotions and feelings on a subject.
I post what I have knowing full well what we have acted on in the past and will permit. And I'll be quite frank here, in the past a fair whack of the content that has been removed from SA orientated threads is because those members have decided to take the conversation in to areas we'd rather not (for previously stated reasons), not because it has just been 'dribble' as you put it.
I'll let you in on another bit of information. Recently there was a topic regarding a new CFA appliance and the cost of having a rear access door into the cab area. A very close friend of mine, and who belongs to another group I am also in, chose to question the cost and ridicule the decision. I myself removed it. Not really the actions of someone who deliberately permits a in crowd is it?
If we did I would left my mates comments there, along with the others of his I've removed (and he's let me know his feelings on that!) But tough.
I used to post photos there but got fed up with it. I occasionally look at the photos still but do not contribute anymore. I will post them here or to Pip/Ashes for the promo unit. That's all I intend to say on ozfire.
Well someone certainly has a bee in their bonnet about it I guess, and what can I say, we can't please everyone. In regards to Pip and Ash and your providing images to their interests. Is where I'm expected to say 'poor old us'? I couldn't really give a rats where you post your images. It's your option and frankly if that is where you choose to post them that's all well and good and I think it is great at least people are out there thinking to take the shots at least when they can. I think it is great you're finding an avenue that sits well with you and where you're comfortable to post / share them. So a thumbs up from me on that. :-)
Anyhow, I've probably detracted the purpose of this thread enough. I just wanted to take the oppurtunity to offer some points of consideration.
Firefrog - I think there is definately a need for a site such as this. You just have to develop your boundries and stick to them or until the need arises to alter them to suit any developing needs. (Much to the like of some.....refer my comment above of not being able to please everyone).
Good luck with your endevours and those of the sites members. :-)