Author Topic: PROTECTIVE HOOD (Read 26044 times)

fire03rescue · « **on:** July 19, 2005, 10:54:52 AM »

My question is do you wear a protective hood when in BA

I have heard both good and ban about this, I would like some opinions
Example
The good - It protects you
The bad - You lose your sense of the heat in the building

Firefrog · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2005, 12:21:10 AM »

Without any doubt they are good.

People often use the argument about loosing sense of heat but ears are for hearing, not heat sensors. A flash hood protects the side of your face and neck from rapid fire development.
Your priority should be to read the fire and apply correct tactics based on what you are experiencing. There a four main things to read - SMOKE - AIR - FLAME - HEAT in that order. Heat is a very late indicator that something is developing. If you sense a rapid increase in heat a flashover could be fast approaching. But don't use your ears to warn you about heat you might just barbecue them. If you read the fire and respond with correct CFB tactics you should not have a sudden increase in heat.

Flash Hoods are great!! CFS needs to make them compulsory for all structural attack.

strikeathird · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:13:16 AM »

They may be great (and trust me, I agree), but technically no CFS volunteer should be wearing them, in any situation, unless at Brukunga, and instructed to do so by an instructor while in such training environments as CFB.

There is much debate about this, but currently, the last I heard (from a source up top), you are not meant to be wearing them. They are not yet approved out of a a training environment, such as Brukunga... and I believe only CFB.. Maybe Hot Pad training.

Untill they are approved, or you receive word from Brukunga / HQ or reigon that they can be worn, I don't think it is worth the risk.

Don't get me wrong, personally I think they are a fantastic piece of LIFE saving equipment... But if some one goes down while wearing one, before they are approved, it could set back the time line of them being approved for AGES!

oz fire · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2005, 09:37:21 AM »

The debate for flash hoods, both urban and rural (and there is a marked difference) is not only being had in CFS, but several career services and other volunteer services as well.

Most career services now issue them for urban incidents and a number or rural/land management agencies are issuing them for rural incidents - NSW NPWS has them as standard issue for all their staff and seasonal crews following findings from a number of burns and deaths during rural fire fighting - although this just clouds further the debate about if CFS should adopt them - interesting though that CAMS (motor sport governing body) stipulates them for all of the motor sport fire fighters, whose general standard of PPE is well below that of ours!!!

The premise in all areas is a lack of knowledge of the environment - risk management would therefore suggest that we know the risk, identify how to address it - easy - teach people how to detect the early signs (as firefiog mentioned).

As for wearing them in CFS - at Brukunga they are used in all live fire training situations - LPG, sim running fuel, multi story and also CFBT.

Firefrog · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2005, 10:12:06 AM »

Does anyone know if they are likely to be approved? Or the rationale behind the debate.

My view - If a hood enhances protection for fire fighters, would it not be simple to select a product or several products that meet whatever standard is appropriate and advise brigades. Not a difficult task and could be done in one or two meetings.

If a firefighter is burned on ears/neck etc due to the lack of a flash hood, is the employer likely to be prosecuted based on the fact that appropriate PPC exists and failed to ensure it was available??

strikeathird · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2005, 03:54:22 PM »

In regards to being prosecuted because the PPE existed, but was not in use...

If it is not approved, I don't think there is any way of being prosecuted, even if the gear was available to buy. That would be like some one getting burnt with Nomex, and saying they could have been wearing PBI and would have been fine?? PLus, they wouldn't be able to prove, beyond resonable doubt, that with a flash hood that they wouldn't have been burnt, etc etc.

In regards to approving it, got no idea when it might happen, thats if it happens. Yes, they are a good item (when used correctly), however while they are yet to be approved, I don't know where you would stand if found to be wearing one...??

And to ozfire, in regards to Motor Sport, there PPE meets a set standard in regard to Motor Sport fire and Rescue. You have to remember, it is a different environment, different types of fires............. They wear a flash hood as "typically" they get closer to the scene in the first instances than what we would. Remembering that in Motorsport accidents / Fires, 99.9% of the time, all that is burning is fuel, and oil. The fires are not 'fuelled' by car interiors, dashboards, plastics etc.... Thus why a Foam and DCP extinguisher normally does the job... They aren't entering going structure fires etc, where the use of a flash hood, could be detrimental to a Fire Fighter... Either positively, or negatively.
- I dont think it fair to say: " whose general standard of PPE is well below that of ours"

As it is a different duty, and hence, different PPE.

corocfs · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2005, 07:51:21 PM »

flash hood = standard SAMFS PPE, worn at EVERY incident that includes the use of BA...

our brigade has had debates about purchasing flash hoods for every BA operaator, or even just one for every BA set, but for some reason it always ends up getting turned down

strikeathird · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2005, 10:09:36 PM »

Well, quite obviously it gets turned down, as they are not allowed.

Don't get me wrong guys, I totally agree at how good they are, and TOTALLY agree, that the sooner they are introduced, the better. But remember, they are yet to be approved by the CFS......................It would be like me walking into a structure fire in my jeans and thongs! They are not approved to be worn, nor are Flash hoods...

AGAIN - I totally agree with all of you, but with so many people saying how they are thinking of / going to buy them, remember, THEY ARE NOT APPROVED TO BE WORN!

Mike · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2005, 07:57:39 AM »

Not approved does not necessarily imply not allowed. If the use of them was not allowed then we wouldn't be using them at STC for a start.

So, with this in mind, the service couldn't complain about anyone purchasing this gear. After all training is ment to teach us best practices, and for CFB - that best practice is to cover all skin, which includes the use of a flash hood. Therefore in order to offer best protection it stands to reason we should be using them to.

Firefrog · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2005, 12:26:54 PM »

I agree Mike

Specifically not allowed is different to not yet approved. Does every Brigade check all equipment purchase against some type of approved list?

I know of five or six types of branches in service within SACFS are they specifically approved for use? Or is this a local purchase decision??

Likewise goggles I see all sorts of differing goggles on fire grounds which one is approved???

Flash hoods should not be seen as some scary new thing it is a simple concept of protection.

strikeathird · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2005, 04:14:06 PM »

I believe brigades recieved memo's about them a while ago, that they should not be bought, or specifically used, out of STC.

When you bring up the fact about how if they are used there, then they must be allowed..?? They are ONLY to be used there, in a Training environment, UNDER SUPERVISION from an instructor.

Ring STC, ask to speak to one of the Instructors, or specifically Cmdr. Wayne Atkins (As he was instructing on my CFB course, and informed us about this issue) ... and ask if you are allowed to go and buy, and wear a Flash hood. I think you will get told.

nomex_nugget · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:30:47 PM »

As a member who received burns to my neck at a structure job (yes the helmet nape was down and the turnout coat collar was up) I would strongly recommend the use of flash hoods. The use of them is mandatory to do CFB training in this state, and we train to do things the way they should be done at a job.

Why is the risk of serious burns to ones head any less likely in a real job than in a compartment under relatively controlled conditions.

I can't understand anyone saying we shouldn't be wearing them, train people to look for the signs and then protect them from dangers..

nn (with flashhood in turnout coat ready for use

)

oz fire · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2005, 09:14:59 AM »

Ahhh - good debate - as for the incorrect and defensive reply to my post re motor sport firies wearing them and their PPE - there was no malice there - as a Motor Sport firie I wear one to the standard stipulated by CAMS, however when the weather is cold enough, I wear my structural one for the extra protection it offers and yes it meets the Aust and NFPA standards!!

CFS does have an approved list of equipment - it is available via Regional Offices and also via HQ. The issue of flash hoods was and remains ensuring that when they are used, they are used appropriately and by persons who understand what a fire is doing.

Those of you who have entered the compartment drills or been against the live fire props will know that a flash hood provides extra protection (hence why they are worn) and also an extra level of mental security - i.e. you body can't feel the heat as quickly. CFS and ALL of those involved in Compartment and Live Fire Training acknowledge that Flash Hoods are excellent PPE, however also acknowledge that CFS needs to ensure they are used appropriately and that people don't relay on them as their 'coat of armour'!

They will eventually be approved, once suitable testing is concluded and also once firm and tested procedures are developed - after all we all acknowledge that they are a great and useful piece of PPE!

strikeathird · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:01:20 PM »

QUOTED TEXT FROM NOMEX NUGGET
As a member who received burns to my neck at a structure job (yes the helmet nape was down and the turnout coat collar was up) I would strongly recommend the use of flash hoods. (1)The use of them is mandatory to do CFB training in this state, and we train to do things the way they should be done at a job.
Why is the risk of serious burns to ones head any less likely in a real job than in a compartment under relatively controlled conditions.

(2)I can't understand anyone saying we shouldn't be wearing them, train people to look for the signs and then protect them from dangers..

nn (with flashhood in turnout coat ready for use

)
END QUOTED TEXT____________________________________

(1) ... No we don't, I was informed by my instructor we train with the Flash hoods in that environment only, and they shouldnt be worn YET on the job, untill they are approved. So there is one thing you may want to check up on before you give people the wrong idea..

(2)... Because they are not yet approved... Seems like a good reason to be saying they shouldn't be worn.

strikeathird · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:04:16 PM »

Quote from: oz fire on July 22, 2005, 09:14:59 AM

Ahhh - good debate - as for the incorrect and defensive reply to my post re motor sport firies wearing them and their PPE - there was no malice there - as a Motor Sport firie I wear one to the standard stipulated by CAMS, however when the weather is cold enough, I wear my structural one for the extra protection it offers and yes it meets the Aust and NFPA standards!!

CFS does have an approved list of equipment - it is available via Regional Offices and also via HQ. The issue of flash hoods was and remains ensuring that when they are used, they are used appropriately and by persons who understand what a fire is doing.

Those of you who have entered the compartment drills or been against the live fire props will know that a flash hood provides extra protection (hence why they are worn) and also an extra level of mental security - i.e. you body can't feel the heat as quickly. CFS and ALL of those involved in Compartment and Live Fire Training acknowledge that Flash Hoods are excellent PPE, however also acknowledge that CFS needs to ensure they are used appropriately and that people don't relay on them as their 'coat of armour'!

They will eventually be approved, once suitable testing is concluded and also once firm and tested procedures are developed - after all we all acknowledge that they are a great and useful piece of PPE!

Cheers for clearing that up about the Motor Sport, didn't think any Malice was intended.

kat · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2005, 02:31:54 PM »

Quote from: strikeathird on July 21, 2005, 04:14:06 PM

I believe brigades recieved memo's about them a while ago, that they should not be bought, or specifically used, out of STC.

Really? I get rather frustrated when I hear of yet another memo telling us that we should or should not be doing something that seems to have not made it to our mailbox! All the personnel in our Brigade that receive correspondence are excellent and prompt at sharing it so I can only surmise that perhaps they are region specific mail outs or in some cases not official memos at all but Group directives or even just "someone thought they saw that once, somewhere".

Quote from: Firefrog on July 21, 2005, 12:26:54 PM

Does every Brigade check all equipment purchase against some type of approved list?

My turn for quoting unverified memos - I "thought I saw somewhere once something" that suggested that we did have to seek approval for any piece of operational equipment outside standard stowage (ie: came with vehicle) before purchase??

strikeathird · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2005, 11:00:12 PM »

Re: The memo, It was only something I was told, havent seen it myself. But was told by a very creditable source.

And in regards to approval of equipment, I think you are right KAT, I believe you do need to seek approval for anything that is not classified as Standard CFS stowage.

corocfs · « **Reply #17 on:** July 27, 2005, 01:43:11 AM »

does anyone carry rural flash hood with their gear??
i have had a quick look on the net asnd found that various services carry them as personal ppe... including the NSWRFS who have a set down SOP that flash hoods will be worn at structure fires by BA operators and all firefighters will carry rural flash hoods at grassys, etc...
just wondering if anyone has personal experience as i was considering looking into one... might eb a great thing to be carrying on me the in case the day arrives when it all turns to s**t.

strikeathird · « **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2005, 08:25:08 PM »

I was unaware of there being a different grading for Flashhoods.

Any info on these Rural ones Alex ?

oz fire · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2005, 10:24:51 AM »

There are two standards that relate to fire fighting apparel - however I can't access the specifics from standards australia to see the difference, if any, between structural and wildfire hoods. However here is the NSWRFS Policy:

Flash Hoods
Flash hoods are designed to be worn during offensive structural firefighting and to be donned when bush firefighting if in danger of fire overrun.
Flash hoods are manufactured to meet ISO 11613. Contract Name & Number

Protective Clothing for the NSW Rural Fire Service. Contract No(s): 981/1247

Offensive Firefighting:

· The flash hood is to be donned according to the Breathing Apparatus manual.
· The flash hood should be donned and pulled down around the neck.
· Ensure the flash hood is tucked under the collar of the offensive firefighting jacket.
· After the BA face mask is put on, the flash hood is pulled up and around the BA mask, face and head covering all exposed skin/hair and does not impede the vision of the wearer.
The structural helmet is donned after the flash hood is pulled up.
· Finally, turn up the protective collar of the offensive firefighting jacket and lock neck protector into place.
· The use of flash hoods for offensive firefighting is stipulated in Service Standard 5.1.5 and Fireground SOP 41.

Bush Firefighting:
· The flash hood is to be carried in the pocket.
· If in danger of being overrun or trapped in a fire, remove flash hood from pocket and remove bushfire helmet. Turn up the protective collar of the bushfire jacket or overalls.
· The flash hood is to be donned over the bushfire goggle, smoke respirator, head, face and collar.
· The user must ensure the flash hood is closed around the bushfire goggle, but does not impede the vision of the wearer.
· Once the flash hood is fitted correctly the bushfire helmet must be put on.
· The use of flash hood for bush firefighting and defensive firefighting is stipulated in Service Standard 5.1.5 and Fireground SOP 41.

corocfs · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2005, 01:17:47 PM »

thanks oz fire

strikeathird · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:36:00 PM »

Cheers for the info.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #22 on:** August 02, 2005, 02:11:01 PM »

Just out of curiosity, if the Flashoods aren't approved by the CFS, does that mean that technically we can't wear our own clothes under our PPE either, unless its approved by CFS?

corocfs · « **Reply #23 on:** August 02, 2005, 03:01:46 PM »

i dont think so CFS_Firey, that seems like it would be massively overboard, however i have read in several places recommendations of what should be worn under ppe.

strikeathird · « **Reply #24 on:** August 02, 2005, 04:37:09 PM »

Your clothes arent being worn as PPE. Where as the flash-hood would be.

Apparently something must have gone out last week about the f/hoods, as Captain told members at training on monday that if any one had them, they were not to be worn untill further notice. (E.G - Until they were approved)

Author Topic: PROTECTIVE HOOD (Read 26044 times)

strikeathird

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corocfs

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corocfs

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