Author Topic: New paging layout  (Read 8883 times)

Offline littlejohn

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
New paging layout
« on: July 16, 2007, 02:24:43 PM »
Does anyone think the new layout to pager messages makes them a waste of time as a source of meaningful information?

I'm waiting for a law to be passed preventing the use of mobile phones & pagers while driving a vehicle.

We may as well revert to 'respond to station'. Pager acknowledgments have become a matter of calling Adelaide fire and asking 'who have you paged, and where are they going?'

pumprescue

  • Guest
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 02:41:16 PM »
If they got rid of the daily incident stuff at the front it would help, so you don't have to scroll to get to the usefull information, but the comms boys say that the new layout was asked for 12 months ago, and just happened, so more chance of SACAD coming in before getting it fixed !

Offline mack

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 570
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 02:44:55 PM »
littlejohn - surely you can remember a few number codes for differant brigades? this info should have been given to your brigade... the numbers are being replaced by letters soon hopefully anyway.


and i was under the impression its already illegal to use a mobile phone whilst driving lol  :wink:

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 02:47:50 PM »
Does anyone think the new layout to pager messages makes them a waste of time as a source of meaningful information?

I'm waiting for a law to be passed preventing the use of mobile phones & pagers while driving a vehicle.

We may as well revert to 'respond to station'. Pager acknowledgments have become a matter of calling Adelaide fire and asking 'who have you paged, and where are they going?'


There is already a law.  It is called "driving without due care & attention"   :wink:

The problem with the current messages, was the bulk of CFS were never meant to get them.   We were assured that when the changeover in Call receipt & dispatch occurred, we would still get our calls paged via Airpro - the software CFS were previously using.

Then, when the changes occurred, there were some software issues, and CFS have been getting the same format of messages as MFS.

The MFS info is designed to be read on an MDT..so they get the message is a neat little format, laid out in a logical way, in an easy to read format.  Our pagers are obviously not set up for that, so we just get the message in one long sentence, hence a very difficult message to read on a pager.

It is supposed to be fixed (eventually!), but I don't know how long that is going to take...

But I have to agree with you littlejohn, the format and the info contained in the messages are very poor

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 03:17:06 PM »
wonder why the MFS: DAILY INC. NO 32 cant be just be "MFS: #32"....and the Date be at the END of the message...

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 03:42:08 PM »
Because the software is designed for MDT's, not pagers...I figure if they were to change the layout of the message, it would require programming changes - which would probably muck up the layout of messages that go to MDT's...

And if you work in Government, have you ever had to try and get programming down....not an easy thing to arrange.....!

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline SA Firey

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,967
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 04:43:15 PM »
Because the software is designed for MDT's, not pagers...I figure if they were to change the layout of the message, it would require programming changes - which would probably muck up the layout of messages that go to MDT's...

And if you work in Government, have you ever had to try and get programming down....not an easy thing to arrange.....!

Pip

This all came about as the MFS crews wanted the Daily Incident Number system, so BOMS(Brigade Operations Management System)has been changed to now do it for them as well as us.

It wont be getting changed again anytime soon :?



Images are copyright

Offline littlejohn

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 06:01:40 PM »
littlejohn - surely you can remember a few number codes for differant brigades?

Without going into the unreliability of my memory, there are 22 brigades in the group and two control centres (it is essentially two large groups stuck together . . . thanks to council mergers etc and don't get me started on the practicality of the whole thing!).

But beyond the annoying codes only, and daily inc info + date at the start, plus the map details inevitably = 0, (in other words a bunch of superfluous information) the info is (in the pages I've received) generally quite ambiguous.

As Pip points out, we were told we'd stick with Airpro.

So, who do I direct feedback to? I know the group is annoyed & they'll be making a noise about it. I'd like to add a bit of volume. I'll fish back through the correspondence and see if someone invited comments.

End rant.


Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 07:00:26 PM »
A pager message, and email came out to Region 1....asking that problems be directed back to the Region...so go through your Captain / GO who can (and have been) passing the info through to Regions, who have been taking it through to the next level...

I would expect it to be the same for all regions.....

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline safireservice

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 07:23:58 PM »
I think it's been said elsewhere but if your pager goes off it means you have a call and you respond to the address given. How hard can it be?
Treat everyone as if they are an idiot, until they prove you otherwise.

Offline Firefrog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 792
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 08:01:55 PM »
well that's not entirely true, seeing as CFS paging is used for admin, news, fire ban updates, weather updates, brigade and group messaging and turnouts etc etc. etc.

Clear concise information is a requirement seeing as we are talking about emergency response. Not really as simplistic as pager goes off equals a fire call.

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 11:02:40 AM »
I think it's been said elsewhere but if your pager goes off it means you have a call and you respond to the address given. How hard can it be?

And I've said this before, but I'll try again....I have a Group pager.  So I get response pagers messages for my whole Group.  There are many people around who also have Group pagers.  Do we jump out of bed as soon as the pager message goes off,  race down to the station, then read the pager, only to find it is a job for a brigade on the other side of the area?

In my area, there are problems with pager reception.  Messages get corrupted.  I get a standard tone for a response message, instead of the chirp, because the CFSRES string was corrupted.  Or the person typing the response message in forgot to put in the CFSRES string.

I also have members in my brigade who don't respond to certain incidents - a few don't handle road crashes very well, so they don't respond to them.  I have others who don't cope with extreme heat very well, so they are selective about responding to fires (but are happy to respond to road crashes !).

So, I want my members to know what they are responding to - it saves me, and them, a lot of trauma down the track.

If we are going to just respond when the pager chirps, we may as well get rid of our expensive little GRN pagers, and just go back to the old tone onlys!    :evil:

We shouldn't have to go backwards 10+ years in relation to our pagers and pager messages!!!

Pip



There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline David

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • David
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 11:39:27 AM »
There seems to be alot of ppl getting worked up by the new layout, in reality the page only takes an extra 5 seconds or so to read and that is not going to make a difference to the out come of the task.  I agree it'll be nice to get the numbers changed to know whos going with you, but if it doesn't happen we'll get used to recognising the numbers of our neighbouring brigades soon enough.
If anything work needs to be done on sorting out the corrupt messages first.
Williamstown
SFF 1
Log off
(formally 38)

Offline RescueHazmat

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,174
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 02:21:14 PM »
I have to agree with 38.  It takes all of 5 seconds to read a couple of lines on your pager..

(Still a heap better than tone only!).. -Although, they had their advantages.

Offline Robert-Robert34

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,429
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 02:25:00 PM »
All i read after hearing my pager go off on Sunday was RCR 2kms East of Kalangadoo Inj uknown and i was out the door in a flash  :-)
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline 5271rescue

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 04:15:42 PM »
I read a fax from the CFS COMMS and they said it should be fixed in a few days now that was two weeks ago...as for remembering numbers very hard when one has a group pager and you get so many filtered numbers.. Bring back the brigade name,remove daily inc and do we really need to know how many calls have been sent out during the day???

blinky bill
my view only

Offline JC

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2007, 04:30:34 PM »
I have to agree with 38.  It takes all of 5 seconds to read a couple of lines on your pager..

(Still a heap better than tone only!).. -Although, they had their advantages.

The tone onlys certainly did, like crews not picking and choosing what calls to turn up to, ie get domestic on the pager and everyman and his dog rocksup but get rubbish bin or a job not that exciting and no one rocks up.
Roxby Downs CFS
Lt 2
BHP ESO

uniden

  • Guest
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2007, 05:35:10 PM »
As mentioned the calls that you receive are done on software designed for MDTs. MFS can then send that message to the MDTs and CFS/SES etc pagers simultaneously. This obviously saves the message being re-typed or then entered into a different computer program.
The daily incident number is very important for the MFS crews as they need to refer to that when giving sitreps, stop messages and the like to Adlelaide Fire. Wouldnt it also be easy for CFS brigades acknowledging calls from MFS to use that number for easy reference?? Only takes a few seconds to read past the message and figure out where and what the callout is.
As for the call sign numbers, I am collating a list of these and will send it to anyone that is interested.

pumprescue

  • Guest
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 06:07:20 PM »
Its unlikely to change before CAD comes in, the idea is to use 1 system of disptach, some of us have been using it for many years, so it isn't a big deal, you will get used to it, and if people contact comms they will get more info if they ask for it.

Getting a bit tired of old stick in the muds who won't accept change, I think its more the fact they don't understand, rather than won't accept.

Its only going to be the same with CAD, with the amount of jobs being pumped through, you need in inc number, and yeah, have a quick read, it takes less than half a second to work out you have a call. 99.9% of the time t goes off on a tone 7, so you know you have a job.

Its not hard to work out, just a pity CFS and MFS didn't let brigades know, and CFS handled the change over very poorly, telling brigades stuff that was never possible.
Don't say stuff that can't happen, as people in CFS land take it for gosple and hold you to it!!!

After 2 weeks, has anyone not turned out......

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2007, 06:41:04 PM »
As a matter of fact, my brigade didn't turn out for a call that Adelaide Fire were convinced they had sent us...had our name on it, an address in our area....and it didn't get to us until many other things had occurred, and we ended up finding out 45 minutes later.  The "default" for the pager also failed dismally.

I am also concerned at the number of pager messages that come out without any address details...eg Respond RCR......Anytown CFS, Anytown........ no road details, no landmarks, no description of what might be involved...  Sure, you can ask for more info ASAP when you get to the station..if the operator isn't too busy with other duties.  ( I know they end up with a lot of work we don't necessarily know about)

Or even some call outs today.  Just one brigade sent to a reported domestic fire.  14 minutes later, the next door brigade paged.   Some time later, SES paged to tarp the roof after a fire.  (I am only going from the pager messages, so there may be more to this, but on first glance, it is a worry)

Don't accuse people of refusing to change, just because they criticise the format of the messages, or the way the new system is currently working.

Should people just accept change, including those examples outlined above just because it is change, and that is the way it is?

If we change, things need to be changed for the better - not go backwards.

Having poorer information in our messages, compared to what we were getting, having inappropriate resources / not enough resources being dispatched to incidents, compared to what was occurring, is certainly not a change for the better - and we need to address the issues and improve that information - and not be called stick in the muds for doing so.

Pip

PS I understand that there are many issues occurring behind the scenes in both services that have resulted in some of these issues - and the staff at Adelaide Fire are trying very hard to sort these issues out - this posting is not meant to be a criticism of them.
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline David

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • David
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 07:19:10 PM »
Pipster, if you were referring to the domestic at Houghton it was just over 2 minutes between 1st and 2nd brigade response. 14 minutes before the third.

16:49:20   17-07-07   MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 60 - 17/07/07 16:49,RESPOND DOMESTIC FIRE,1 MILBANCA RD,HOUGHTON, MAP 86 B 11 ,,,21624*CFSRES: CFS Hermitage Response

16:51:59   17-07-07   MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 60 - 17/07/07 16:51,RESPOND DOMESTIC FIRE,1 MILBANCA RD,HOUGHTON, MAP 86 B 11 ,,,9519*CFSRES: CFS Tea Tree Gully Response

My apologies if this wasn't the one you were refering to.
Williamstown
SFF 1
Log off
(formally 38)

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 09:49:25 PM »

As for the call sign numbers, I am collating a list of these and will send it to anyone that is interested.

If people need station/appliance codes i believe they are available from region. We have the whole states id's at our station.
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline 5271rescue

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2007, 07:10:24 AM »
I just love how you call adelaide fire up on the radio and they wont talk to you so I rang them while doing so another group in our region was also calling them via radio and they would not answer.When I spoke to comms to say we got the stop call via pager,I said BNGJGHGU group is and has been calling you on 232 and they still would not talk to them.....
blinky bill
my view only

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2007, 11:10:35 AM »
Pipster, if you were referring to the domestic at Houghton it was just over 2 minutes between 1st and 2nd brigade response. 14 minutes before the third.

16:49:20   17-07-07   MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 60 - 17/07/07 16:49,RESPOND DOMESTIC FIRE,1 MILBANCA RD,HOUGHTON, MAP 86 B 11 ,,,21624*CFSRES: CFS Hermitage Response

16:51:59   17-07-07   MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 60 - 17/07/07 16:51,RESPOND DOMESTIC FIRE,1 MILBANCA RD,HOUGHTON, MAP 86 B 11 ,,,9519*CFSRES: CFS Tea Tree Gully Response

My apologies if this wasn't the one you were refering to.

D'oh, my decoder didn't pick up the second brigade page...however, in my own Group, a single brigade was responded to a house fire.  It was only when that brigade went mobile ( about 8 minutes later) that they asked who the other brigade was that was called.  They were told they were the only one  (with their one large appliance)!

In addition, two brigades called to a road crash - neither were designated rescue (going against our established SOP's)  Upon arrival, it was determined, no one was trapped, but it would have made for another delay had Rescue been required.

These are hardly changes for the better.

We can only hope that the issues giving rise to these problems can be sorted out ASAP, although I suspect many of them will not be.

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline mengcfs

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New paging layout
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2007, 10:16:14 AM »
Is it that hard to type in the Brigade name........

MFS: *CFSRES: brigade name RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 18/07/2007 6:53:36 PM

MFS: *CFSRES: brigade name RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 18/07/2007 7:01:09 PM

MFS: URGMSG brigade/unit name RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST

Not having a go just and observation, keep up the good work :wink:

 

anything